Shields used to create aerodynamic bubble for ships in atmosphere.

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Charles Markov, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Santaman

    Santaman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fusion reactors will have to expell the fusion product, mainly helium and probably they use it also to get rid of a lot of waste heat, I guess after a while there will be too much plasma and it needs to be vented, fusion reactors are rather iffy, anything upsetting the balance inside them will make them stall.
     
  2. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

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    anecdotal but I once heard a jet mechanic tell a story about IAI Kfir fighter that had lost most of a wing from a SAM. The pilot managed to land the thing missing control services and most of a wing practically on jet thrust alone. Since they didn't have vectored thrust i am not sure how reliable that is, but its fun to think of.

    I like the idea of force field aerodynamics too. Good thread.
     
  3. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Impulse_drive
    In Federation starships, the impulse drive was essentially an augmented fusion rocket, usually consisting of one or more fusion reactors, a driver coil assembly, and a vectored thrust nozzle to direct the plasma exhaust. The fusion reaction generated a highly energized plasma. This plasma, ("electro-plasma") could be employed for propulsion, or could be diverted through the EPS to the power transfer grid, via EPS conduits, so as to supply other systems. The accelerated plasma was passed through the driver coils, thereby generating a subspace field which improved the propulsive effect.

    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Impulse_engine
    An impulse engine (a colloquialization of internally metered pulse drive) was a nuclear fusion based propulsion system used primarily for sublight speeds. Impulse engines were first used by Humans in the 21st century aboard the Nomad unmanned probe and then on the manned USS Lewis & Clark, the first ship to visit Saturn. (TOS novel: The Rings of Time) This technology was later used by the United Earth, and later the Federation. (TOS novel: Final Frontier; ENT novelization: Broken Bow) Each impulse engine consisted of one or more nuclear fusion reactors, a series of subspace field coils, and a vectored thrust nozzle to direct the plasma exhaust; which produced a high energy plasma which was vented out of the thrust nozzles to propel the starship. (ST reference: USS Enterprise Owners' Workshop Manual) The deuterium based fusion reaction of the impulse drive also would serve as a secondary power system for a starship and was utilized for powering internal systems. (TNG reference: Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual) In the event of an emergency while at warp, the impulse engines could also be utilized to temporarily generate a Warp field to maintain warp speed for the vessel or the primary hull in the event of Saucer separation. (ST reference: USS Enterprise Owners' Workshop Manual)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
    In the fictional Star Trek universe, the impulse drive is the method of propulsion that starships and other spacecraft use when they are travelling below the speed of light.[1] Typically powered by deuterium fusion reactors, impulse engines let ships travel interplanetary distances readily. For example, Starfleet Academy cadets use impulse engines when flying from Earth to Saturn and back.[citation needed] Unlike the warp engines, impulse engines work on principles used in today's rocketry, throwing mass out the back as fast as possible to drive you forward.
     
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  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's a bit disappointing to see such baloney perpetuated by three wikis in a row... But not surprising.

    Suffice to say that the claim is baseless, as far as the known Star Trek universe is concerned. Although it furthermore is contrary to Star Trek pseudofact, whether that amounts to anything.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  5. Santaman

    Santaman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay.. so what kind of an exhaust plume would it generate to accelerate a Galaxy class ship to its usual speed as fast as we see on screen? We'll forget the amount of fuel etc for this.. think the ship has a mass of 5 million tons IIRC:biggrin:
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I guess we could establish an upper limit on the exhaust velocity at, say, lightspeed...

    ...But, OTOH, we could decide the ship's inertial mass during acceleration is exactly five and a half grams, whereas the exhaust plume masses fifty tons for each gram of fuel drawn from the tanks. It's Star Trek, after all: they can use Newtonian rocketry for going interstellar if they really wish to. :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Santaman

    Santaman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ha! yeah.. that sounds like Star Trek.. :p
     
  8. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    You remember in DS9's first episode when they had to move DS9 to next to the opening of the Worm Hole.
    O'Brien created a SubSpace Field that lowered the stations effective mass which let it be moved easily towards the location

    I bet you that O'Brien picked up that idea from somewhere that was already in use, probably normal Federation StarShips which allows them that phenomenal manueverability.

     
  9. Cult Classic

    Cult Classic Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There's also that TNG episode where Q loses his powers, and says something to Geordi that makes him think of something similar to try to move an asteroidal moon with the ship's tractor beam. "Deja Q" [http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/161.htm]:

    Q: This is obviously the result of a large celestial object passing through at near right angles to the plane of the star system. Probably a black hole.
    DATA: Can you recommend a way to counter the effect?
    Q: Simple. Change the gravitational constant of the universe.
    LAFORGE: What?
    Q: Change the gravitational constant of the universe, thereby altering the mass of the asteroid.
    LAFORGE: Redefine gravity? How am I supposed to do that?
    Q: You just do it. Where's that Doctor, anyway?
    DATA: Geordi is trying to say that changing the gravitational constant of the universe is beyond our capabilities.
    Q: Oh. In that case, never mind.
    (Crusher enters)
    Q: Ah, Doctor Crusher. I see Starfleet has shipped you back into exile.
    DATA: Q says he has hurt his back.
    CRUSHER: Ah ha. Well, if I didn't see it with my own eyes, I wouldn't believe it. According to this, he has classic back trauma. Muscle spasms.
    Q: I've been under a lot of pressure lately. Family problems.
    CRUSHER: Well. don't expect too much sympathy from me. You've been a pain in our backside often enough.
    Q: Your bedside manner is admirable, Doctor. I'm sure your patients recover quickly just to get away from you.
    LAFORGE: You know, this might work. We can't change the gravitational constant of the universe, but if we wrap a low level warp field around that moon, we could reduce its gravitational constant. Make it lighter so we can push it.
    Q: Glad I could help. Ow. I think.
    CRUSHER: Now what?
    Q: There's something wrong with my stomach. ​

    If that were what was routinely done to up the effectiveness of the impulse drive, it kinda makes one wonder why the chief engineer of a Galaxy-class starship would need any prodding to come up with the idea.
     
  10. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

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    Remember in the VOY episode when the AEON comes back in time, and they find out that it has "Hyper-Impulse" drives when it tries to go back to the future?

    Maybe it's not routinely done, but a combination of a SubSpace Field / Low Level Warp Field and a Static Warp Shell to deal with Time Dilation when going "> 0.25c" & "< 1.0c" could be what creates "Hyper-Impulse" drives in the future. That's what is going on in my Head Canon.
     
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  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Have we ever seen an impulse exhaust plume? There have been mentions of "impulse wake" and "impulse ion trail" and we even see a graphic of impulse ion momentum distribution in "Relics".
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Trek has been diligent in avoiding Flash Gordon style rocket plumes overall - TNG and DS9 both did one episode showing RCS engine flames, and the Kelvin movies all had rocket action from the undersaucer thingamabobs, but impulse engines have merely been glowing.

    ...And making space shimmer around them, but warp engine exhaust does this as well in the Kelvin movies.

    A mere "tailpipe" would leave trails and the like. Probably only a "rocket" would be likely to give meaningful momentum to the ions, though - that is, momentum that would tell our experts that a starship has been struggling against a tractor beam here.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's likely that the mass-reducing abilities of the Impulse Engines are just an automatic procedure by the 24th century, which is why Geordi doesn't immediately think about it.

    This is the same crew that thought "turn it off and on again" was a revolutionary piece of IT wisdom back in Contagion, after all :devil:
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...Trying to turn, say, a hospital off and on today to get rid of a computer virus would be quite "revolutionary" wisdom today, too!

    But yeah, I can see LaForge taking a while to figure out that stuff happening inside his precious engine might be a good way to deal with a moon.

    What we might deduce from the exchange is that warp engines don't routinely lower the mass of the starship, as it is the applying of those engines specifically that does not occur to LaForge. Which is a shame - it would be an elegant way indeed to achieve FTL by choosing a negative value for the mass in Einstein's equations!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Back in the 23rd century it may well have been the job of the nacelles to lower the overall mass of the ship (there's several example of this in TOS and some of the movies)

    However, if we believe the TNG-TM then 24th century starships have those nifty compact subspace driver coils installed directly inside the Impulse Engines! So, while nacelles could do the same job, it's not something they are routinely call upon for
     
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  16. Santaman

    Santaman Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So actually when we put everything together impulse engines make absolutely no sense at all.. :p:biggrin:;)
     
  17. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    LOL, is it worse than warp drive? :D
     
  18. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Well, if you took Laforge's word that impulse design hasn't changed for 200 years you could argue that TNG's older ships used the same magic with the exception of what is seen in ENT (they are older than 200 years). :)
     
  19. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, technically he said it hadn't changed "much". :whistle:
    IOW, a reasonably effective drive system made absurdly more efficient through some kind of mass reducer
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Oh, I was just coming up with an excuse for not having to account the very rocket thruster-like impulse deck that was ejected in Enterprise's "Shuttlepod One" :angel: