Reports from from the D's encounter. Other reports that can be re-categorized as Borg encounters.
Shelby
- Thread starter Wingsley
- Start date
I think Riker was scared to take the center seat, look at how bad he handed the battle in "Generations".
Unfortunately, that's one reason not to like Voyager for me, they robbed TNG and 'Q Who' the first contact with the Borg.
I have chosen to ignore that Hansen story.
To be fair Starfleet should have known about the Borg since the Enterprise B rescued those El Aurians - some of them must have told Starfleet about why they were refugees and which species destroyed their system. So (and I’m not defending VOY here - it’s my least favourite show after DSC) it makes perfect sense that the hansens knew about the Borg.
Good point.
However, in my overlycritical way I don't like the TNG films so that doesn't fit into my personal canon.
I end up taking his whole history into account & instead of thinking he was scared to take command, I expect he has subconscious doubt about his worthiness, being that his whole career is built on having his 1st captain (& probably most influential) be the one from the Pegasus, who he aided in getting the whole crew killed, & then covered it up, & used that captain's recommendation to further his career. It kind of undermines his whole worth as an officer to some degree, & it also explains why he's such a dick to lesser officers like Ro or Barclay, & why he's such a gung ho mock hero type guy. It's all a façade, hiding a very fragile person imho
Fair enoughGood point.
However, in my overlycritical way I don't like the TNG films so that doesn't fit into my personal canon.
generations is one of the worst offenders !I think Riker just liked his coworkers and wanted to work there as long as possible, anybody can relate to that. Advance the career vs. sacrificing a perfect position where you're happy is not an easy choice. And keeping things running smoothly on the Enterprise is no less important than another captain considering how often the Enterprise is in the position to save the federation from danger
Good points, he was indeed a dick against lesser officers and Jellico. Have you read the Titan novels? I hope he is a better captain than commander
I didn't think RIker was all that bad to the lesser officers. No more harsh than any other character would have been imo. Would Jellico or Janeway have been nice and understanding about Barclay being late all the time.. no way. I even wonder if Picard hadn't passed Barclay thing down to Geordie to solve, if even Picard would eventually lost his temper with the guy.
Picard never met Barclay prior to him accidentally calling him "Mr. Broccoli" to his face.
Picard wouldn't have lost his temper but would not have had tolerance for an officer not being 100% present on duty.
With Riker and lesser officers I don't think he intends to be mean so much as he has little awareness that they find him intimidating, so he is a jerk without intending it.
Maybe he just likes the job function of executive officer, as Kirk said he liked being a Captain better than an admiral and as some great engineers, salespeople etc have no interest in running an entire company.
Well, if that's the case, it wasn't always, & there's been no admission of a goal change on his part from when he wanted to be a captain. It's not like he's in some other career track. The show gives the impression that people in the command track are aimed toward command, especially at that level of experience & posting
I wouldn't sweat Riker refusing command - Starfleet might well be overstocked in competent people (as we know starships are the true bottleneck, there never being enough) and not excessively worried about those who don't wish to rise to their level of incompetence. In this specific case, if Starfleet can have Picard back, that's what they'll do, having found Picard ideal for the Federation Flagship in the first place; the other ships will get captains easily enough, there being a queue to each anyway.
Shelby being an expert on Borg without having access to any more material than our heroes is pretty realistic. Our heroes are not experts. They have better things to do than become experts. Shelby simply is in a different line of work, taking the time to learn this special subject in and out.
I guess it's a symptom of the times to mistake participants or witnesses for experts. Knowing all about your unfortunate ailment doesn't make you a doctor, though, and certainly not an expert on said ailment in any practically relevant sense.
And it must take an expert, or an army thereof, to dig up the real and relevant dirt on the Borg from the vast files of the UFP. Exactly because those files are so vast. In about 99% of cases, interviews similar to those of the El-Aurians are likely to prove worthless or misleading, and great care has to be taken not to connect irrelevant data to the subject matter by accident (or somebody might come to think the Ferengi eat their opponents, say).
Shelby is likely to be Starfleet's necessary antithesis to Fox Mulder: the woman who shoots down the false connections and worthless speculations and cuts through the irrelevant evidence. Or then she's the technohead that takes over when handed this carefully verified data, and devises the fantastic defenses. I doubt any of the TNG heroes could do the former, but LaForge rather than Riker might be the right man for the latter.
Timo Saloniemi
Shelby being an expert on Borg without having access to any more material than our heroes is pretty realistic. Our heroes are not experts. They have better things to do than become experts. Shelby simply is in a different line of work, taking the time to learn this special subject in and out.
I guess it's a symptom of the times to mistake participants or witnesses for experts. Knowing all about your unfortunate ailment doesn't make you a doctor, though, and certainly not an expert on said ailment in any practically relevant sense.
And it must take an expert, or an army thereof, to dig up the real and relevant dirt on the Borg from the vast files of the UFP. Exactly because those files are so vast. In about 99% of cases, interviews similar to those of the El-Aurians are likely to prove worthless or misleading, and great care has to be taken not to connect irrelevant data to the subject matter by accident (or somebody might come to think the Ferengi eat their opponents, say).
Shelby is likely to be Starfleet's necessary antithesis to Fox Mulder: the woman who shoots down the false connections and worthless speculations and cuts through the irrelevant evidence. Or then she's the technohead that takes over when handed this carefully verified data, and devises the fantastic defenses. I doubt any of the TNG heroes could do the former, but LaForge rather than Riker might be the right man for the latter.
Timo Saloniemi
With regards to Riker.... being the first officer of the Federation flagship (or any Galaxy/Sovereign-class starship for that matter) is probably about as prestigious or important as captaining an Excelsior-class starship or a similar vessel.
Strong willed women in authority have always scared me. Shelby, Kira in DS9, Torres in VOY...I think it’s because I’m a mild, unmotivated woman not in authority. I was only well behaved in high school because I was terrified of the principal.
Shelby particularly seemed like a tough person to work with. She was stubborn, unyielding and went against the chain of command. She had a one track mind and only wanted to do things her way. She didn’t fit in with the rest of the bridge, and that makes things very difficult in high stress situations. I would have a really hard time working with someone like her. I would probably just cower and nod my head a lot.
Shelby particularly seemed like a tough person to work with. She was stubborn, unyielding and went against the chain of command. She had a one track mind and only wanted to do things her way. She didn’t fit in with the rest of the bridge, and that makes things very difficult in high stress situations. I would have a really hard time working with someone like her. I would probably just cower and nod my head a lot.
I thought Shelby was a great character. She added some much appreciated dramatic tension and spice. I loved her rows with Riker and how she pushed him and made him reassess himself. Shelby was the catalyst of some of the best Riker moments in the entire run of TNG.
I love Picard as captain but when I heard that they were at one time speculating having Riker as captain and Shelby as XO I think that would've been great. Absent that, I've longed wished they had made Shelby the captain on Voyager. I think the Borg episodes would've been even more special with Shelby in command of Voyager.
I also wish they had brought her back at some point. It would've been great to see her again, even in a cameo.
I love Picard as captain but when I heard that they were at one time speculating having Riker as captain and Shelby as XO I think that would've been great. Absent that, I've longed wished they had made Shelby the captain on Voyager. I think the Borg episodes would've been even more special with Shelby in command of Voyager.
I also wish they had brought her back at some point. It would've been great to see her again, even in a cameo.
It's not my goal to derail this thread but Wikipedia says that Shelby was one of the candidates to take over Voyager after Bujold quit, that could've been interesting.
On the other hand, maybe in some way it's a part of Shelby's character that she appeared only in TBOBW.
For all we know, everybody might have grown to hate her as the captain of Voyager.
On the other hand, maybe in some way it's a part of Shelby's character that she appeared only in TBOBW.
For all we know, everybody might have grown to hate her as the captain of Voyager.
Prestige is certainly the story we're all supposed to buy, but still, that's hardly a career goal for a commander imho.
Yeah, but Picard kind of dispels that with his "Starfleet needs good captains, particularly now" remark. I suppose they'll get somebody, but they ain't gonna get the guy who should be one of the people on the forfront of the Borg problem
Speaking of which, there is another factor in Riker staying on the D that no one talks about... Doubt in Picard. It's pretty crazy that he'd be ushered right back to the captain seat after Wolf 359. So, maybe Starfleet goes along with Riker staying put, not just because he is happier there or whatever, but it's a pretty risky call to have Picard back so soon, & maybe everybody is a little more cool with it knowing Riker is around
For some reason I always thought Riker stuck with being first officer of the Enterprise because he was just waiting for Picard to retire and expected to inherit the captain’s chair from him. Now that I think about it however, I don’t know how I arrived at that idea originally! Possibly it was in one of the novels from that era, or maybe I was projecting the original Phase II plan of Kirk being promoted to admiral with Decker becoming captain?
The scene in Coming of Age where Picard announces he’s been offered commandant of Starfleet Academy and Riker sycophantically congratulates him always makes me laugh because I thought Riker was only pleased for Picard because he was expecting to land the Enterprise captain’s chair!
The scene in Coming of Age where Picard announces he’s been offered commandant of Starfleet Academy and Riker sycophantically congratulates him always makes me laugh because I thought Riker was only pleased for Picard because he was expecting to land the Enterprise captain’s chair!
I think Picard would be thinking of Riker's interests in that speech, not Starfleet's. There may be something to what he's saying, but there need not be much.
Why should Riker be involved in the Borg fight? He's just a frontline officer who for that very reason hasn't had much time to get down deep on the subject. If something can be established about the Borg at this early date, it's that fighting them with starships isn't likely to work too well. Debrief Riker for what he knows, but then send him back to do the good work of gathering more data for the Borg experts.
Indeed - but assigning Riker specifically as the chaperon sounds awfully futile. His loyalties were made clear when he dropped the mission of protecting Earth and instead went to rescue the traitor. And by the time of ST:FC, the whole command crew is apparently declared pariah (at least on matters Borg), and is stuck with Picard on that comet-counting mission.
Timo Saloniemi
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