Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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There's a four-episode slump in S7 that bores the s**t out of me.
I'd say there are some bad episodes left, some overrated episodes, and some that other people consider bad, but I don't think there's anything left quite so horrible as the cursed Profit and Lace.
There are some polarizing ones left, for sure. I'm eager to hear Shatnertage's thoughts, when the time comes, on:
There are some polarizing ones left, for sure. I'm eager to hear Shatnertage's thoughts, when the time comes, on:
Take Me Out To the Holosuite
Badda-Bing Badda-Bang
It's Only a Paper Moon
The Emperor's New Cloak
Covenant
I don't even think these are all bad episodes (I love two of them) but they certainly have their haters.
Badda-Bing Badda-Bang
It's Only a Paper Moon
The Emperor's New Cloak
Covenant
I don't even think these are all bad episodes (I love two of them) but they certainly have their haters.
One of those I even consider to be an outstanding episode, but I think I'm unfortunately in the minority on that.
As for one other...the episode would be pretty good if it hadn't been for one character having a very un-Trek-like attitude. But I've said my piece on that already.
"Covenant"
As for one other...the episode would be pretty good if it hadn't been for one character having a very un-Trek-like attitude. But I've said my piece on that already.
Definitely one of the best. Whenever Trek doesn't tidy things up in a nice, neat package -- I believe it does some of its best work.
Good screenwriting has become...
"Time Orphan"
I take it back. "Profit and Lace" isn't the worst episode of DS9.
"Time's Orphan" is.
This is just a horrible episode from every angle. The science fiction is some of the dumbest we've seen in a while, and, for Trek, that's saying a lot. A hellmouth inside of a cave in the middle of a field? Really? The entire set-up--that Molly emerges as a feral teenager--is ridiculous, which, for Trek, is saying a lot. The O'Brien's reaction is ludicrous: instead of seeking help from actual experts, which you'd think any caring parents would do, they instead offer their DIY therapy which is rolling a ball around and visiting the holodeck. And the conclusion...I'll get to that later.
"Time's Orphan" is just so mind-boggling nonsensical that...it boggles the mind. It's as if it was an episode created by people who'd read somewhere that humans live in families, but had never seen, or been a part of, an actual family.
The little things are all wrong, too. At one point Miles is stressing because he has to work his shift. Perspective? Your daughter just suffered an incredible trauma, and you're one of two people who are helping her work through it. I think you can call in sick.
And the decision they reach--that the best thing for Molly isn't treatment at a facility, which, judging by the penal facilities, would be quite pleasant and where, if they really are caring parents in a post-scarcity society where money is no object, they can probably live with her, but sending her back to a nasty, short, and brutish life. As a parent, that is just so, so wrong.
The only thing that saves this episode is the great, emotionally true B story about Worf trying to prove he's a good parent. What does it say that I empathize more with the Klingon/Trill couple than the humans?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how completely wrong this episode is. It's not just bad, it's offensively bad.
Except the B story, which is actually really good.
"Time Orphan"
I take it back. "Profit and Lace" isn't the worst episode of DS9.
"Time's Orphan" is.
This is just a horrible episode from every angle. The science fiction is some of the dumbest we've seen in a while, and, for Trek, that's saying a lot. A hellmouth inside of a cave in the middle of a field? Really? The entire set-up--that Molly emerges as a feral teenager--is ridiculous, which, for Trek, is saying a lot. The O'Brien's reaction is ludicrous: instead of seeking help from actual experts, which you'd think any caring parents would do, they instead offer their DIY therapy which is rolling a ball around and visiting the holodeck. And the conclusion...I'll get to that later.
"Time's Orphan" is just so mind-boggling nonsensical that...it boggles the mind. It's as if it was an episode created by people who'd read somewhere that humans live in families, but had never seen, or been a part of, an actual family.
The little things are all wrong, too. At one point Miles is stressing because he has to work his shift. Perspective? Your daughter just suffered an incredible trauma, and you're one of two people who are helping her work through it. I think you can call in sick.
And the decision they reach--that the best thing for Molly isn't treatment at a facility, which, judging by the penal facilities, would be quite pleasant and where, if they really are caring parents in a post-scarcity society where money is no object, they can probably live with her, but sending her back to a nasty, short, and brutish life. As a parent, that is just so, so wrong.
The only thing that saves this episode is the great, emotionally true B story about Worf trying to prove he's a good parent. What does it say that I empathize more with the Klingon/Trill couple than the humans?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how completely wrong this episode is. It's not just bad, it's offensively bad.
Except the B story, which is actually really good.
Too true!Yes, this is a bad one. I do like the fact that the writers wanted to do something with the O'Brien family, to remind us that people in the 24th century actually still have families and offspring, and that Keiko and their children are an important part of Miles O'Brien's life...but they picked a really strange and ill-thought out idea to wrap the episode around. And like you say, it was ultimately more damaging to the concept of family life and parent-child relationships than anything.
We're past the worse now, though. Nothing equivalent to this or sex-change Quark will insult your sapience from here on, though one season seven episode hovers close to the danger zone...
Yea, I'm a few episodes ahead of you, so just watched this one recently, and yea, it definitely goes on the Top 10 list, and likely the top 5 list of worst episodes, I was apalled that they sent her back, without truly trying to help her with professional help. "She knows how to survive" 
I enjoyed it.
Yes, it wasn't the best of DS9 by any stretch of the imagination, but I thought it was entertaining. I was 14 when I last (and first) watched this though, so maybe I wouldn't like it as much if I rewatched- but it's definitely not worse than Profit and Lace!
Yes, it wasn't the best of DS9 by any stretch of the imagination, but I thought it was entertaining. I was 14 when I last (and first) watched this though, so maybe I wouldn't like it as much if I rewatched- but it's definitely not worse than Profit and Lace!
IMO, two good things came from Time's Orphan:
1. A .gif that included Miles' line, "Bollocks!" with DS9's two other most memorable lines ("Fake!" and "Real!")
2. A 'ch0p that included the balls with the image of Dukat in pain after sitting on that spike in Indiscretion, giving us the shortlived-but-hilarious "Dukat's Eggs" meme.
Can't find either of these images anymore tho'.
1. A .gif that included Miles' line, "Bollocks!" with DS9's two other most memorable lines ("Fake!" and "Real!")
2. A 'ch0p that included the balls with the image of Dukat in pain after sitting on that spike in Indiscretion, giving us the shortlived-but-hilarious "Dukat's Eggs" meme.
Can't find either of these images anymore tho'.
One last thing about "Time's Orphan." Doctor Who did the same thing but much, much, much, much better in "The Girl Who Waited."
Now we get to listen to...
"The Sound of Her Voice"
As an episode where not much happens but there's a focus on the psychological development of the characters, you'd think I'd love this one. But I thought it was really weak. It gets some points for trying something a little different, but from the way it was structured I correctly predicted the "twist" in the middle of the third act. It seems like a waste; from a story point of view, what difference does it make if they pick her up or not at the end?
In fact, you could have had a much more interesting twist. One: everyone is charmed by Lisa and confides in her. Then, as they're about to pick her up, they find the ship's log and discover that she went Commodore Decker insane and destroyed her own ship. Or, she's really a Section 31 agent extracting information from the crew. Or, she's a changeling. Or anything but, "timey wimey wibbly wobbly."
Not an awful episode, but a dud nonetheless.
But, and this is a big but, there was a fantastic B story again. Quark's trying to set up Date Night for Odo so he can pull a score, and Jake is along for the ride. I LOVED that little nod Jake gave Odo at the beginning when he asked about the one-month anniversary. And the whole thing was put together so well that I wish it was the A story. This is how you show character development.
Now we get to listen to...
"The Sound of Her Voice"
As an episode where not much happens but there's a focus on the psychological development of the characters, you'd think I'd love this one. But I thought it was really weak. It gets some points for trying something a little different, but from the way it was structured I correctly predicted the "twist" in the middle of the third act. It seems like a waste; from a story point of view, what difference does it make if they pick her up or not at the end?
In fact, you could have had a much more interesting twist. One: everyone is charmed by Lisa and confides in her. Then, as they're about to pick her up, they find the ship's log and discover that she went Commodore Decker insane and destroyed her own ship. Or, she's really a Section 31 agent extracting information from the crew. Or, she's a changeling. Or anything but, "timey wimey wibbly wobbly."
Not an awful episode, but a dud nonetheless.
But, and this is a big but, there was a fantastic B story again. Quark's trying to set up Date Night for Odo so he can pull a score, and Jake is along for the ride. I LOVED that little nod Jake gave Odo at the beginning when he asked about the one-month anniversary. And the whole thing was put together so well that I wish it was the A story. This is how you show character development.
You know, when I first saw this episode when I was 18 I thought it was interesting. Now, at 32 with a husband and two kids I agree that it sucks. Why in the world would they think rolling a ball in the holosuite was sufficient treatment for Molly's condition? And why oh why would they then conclude that sending her back to live alone with no resources for the rest of her life was best? Heck, they didn't even send her with a med kit or a blanket. So she needs space? Leave DS9 and move out to the country where she can run around. Keiko hates it on DS9 anyway, take the kids to Bajor and let her get well there.
And I agree with you about the B-story, very well done. I feel certain it was added to make what's coming up seem even more tragic (as if Worf isn't tragic enough already).
This week's script is stained with the...
"Tears of the Profits"
I'd been thinking that the weak run of episodes since "His Way" were actually a good sign; maybe the creative team was spending all of their time working on a fantastic season finale that would tie together all of the emotional stories of season 6...and, of course, say goodbye to Jadzia.
That's not exactly what happened.
Neat that the Bajorans are celebrating Life Day. And that Sisko gets a medal named after Pike. Punch it!
Then things kind of go downhill. Bashir and Quark throw a pity party for themselves in Vic's lounge because Jadzia and Worf want to have kids. If Roddenberry were still alive, that wouldn't mean she wouldn't still need a "love instructor," but this is dystopian Trek, where the bonds of matrimony mean something. Not really the kind of thing these guys should be worried about given the impending battle, and not good that they're talking to Vic and not each other.
Nice Sinatra cover for Vic, though.
Also good stuff happening on Cardassia--three great guest actors bouncing off each other, plus Dukat's gone batshit insane. It must be the milk.
Then, because of my own kids carrying on, I thought that Bashir told Dax she was pregnant. Reading MA, it just turns out that he said she'd be able to have kids. Kind of undercuts her gratitude for me, because she's thankful for...maybe getting pregnant at some later date? I see that as a "well, that's good news" type thing, but a "go to the temple even though I don't usually go to the temple" thing.
Then Dukat shows up, goes Emperor Palpatine on Dax, and kills her.
It's really a random and senseless death, a lot like Yar on TNG. Dukat even apologizes for killing her. What a waste! Imagine the emotional impact if she'd have sacrificed herself for Worf (like sacrificed his career for her a few episodes ago) or for her friend Sisko, or his son Jake. Instead, she's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I also didn't like keeping her alive until she could have last words...it just felt false to me. But I will say that Worf's scream after she died absolutely brought tears to my eyes, and was the one thing they really got right. Knowing what that scream means just makes it so powerful emotionally...MA says that Terry Farrell kept tearing up while he was doing it, and I don't blame her one bit.
There's also a decent space battle. Sisko senses a great disturbance in the force and has to go to his room. Kira takes over, and O'Brien basically saves the entire Alpha Quadrant.
Then, back at the station, it's goodbye to Dax. Sisko gives an introspective speech to her coffin. The people of Bajor are calling out to the Emissary of the Prophets for guidance in this, their darkest hour. And, thanks in part to an alliance that Sisko sacrificed his own principles for (and broke the law for), the Alphas are finally getting the upper hand on the Dominion...maybe.
So is Sisko energized by the faith of the Bajorans in him? Does he resolve to honor the memory of Dax by seeing the battle through to the end?
No. In a swerve that makes absolutely no sense, Sisko, our hero captain, responds to the crisis by going on vacation. In New Orleans.
I'm still scratching my head over this. It's an awful thing to have him do at any time, but it's a positively bizarre cliffhanger. If Sisko can't be bother to stick around for the Dominion War, why should I?
Three episodes ago, a non-com couldn't miss a work shift even though his daughter had turned feral. Now, the linchpin of the Federation's forces in the sector, and the bridge to a valuable ally, is just allowed to burn his sick days?
I could talk some more about how I don't understand this, but work calls. I will discuss this more...if you do, too.
"Tears of the Profits"
I'd been thinking that the weak run of episodes since "His Way" were actually a good sign; maybe the creative team was spending all of their time working on a fantastic season finale that would tie together all of the emotional stories of season 6...and, of course, say goodbye to Jadzia.
That's not exactly what happened.
Neat that the Bajorans are celebrating Life Day. And that Sisko gets a medal named after Pike. Punch it!
Then things kind of go downhill. Bashir and Quark throw a pity party for themselves in Vic's lounge because Jadzia and Worf want to have kids. If Roddenberry were still alive, that wouldn't mean she wouldn't still need a "love instructor," but this is dystopian Trek, where the bonds of matrimony mean something. Not really the kind of thing these guys should be worried about given the impending battle, and not good that they're talking to Vic and not each other.
Nice Sinatra cover for Vic, though.
Also good stuff happening on Cardassia--three great guest actors bouncing off each other, plus Dukat's gone batshit insane. It must be the milk.
Then, because of my own kids carrying on, I thought that Bashir told Dax she was pregnant. Reading MA, it just turns out that he said she'd be able to have kids. Kind of undercuts her gratitude for me, because she's thankful for...maybe getting pregnant at some later date? I see that as a "well, that's good news" type thing, but a "go to the temple even though I don't usually go to the temple" thing.
Then Dukat shows up, goes Emperor Palpatine on Dax, and kills her.
It's really a random and senseless death, a lot like Yar on TNG. Dukat even apologizes for killing her. What a waste! Imagine the emotional impact if she'd have sacrificed herself for Worf (like sacrificed his career for her a few episodes ago) or for her friend Sisko, or his son Jake. Instead, she's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I also didn't like keeping her alive until she could have last words...it just felt false to me. But I will say that Worf's scream after she died absolutely brought tears to my eyes, and was the one thing they really got right. Knowing what that scream means just makes it so powerful emotionally...MA says that Terry Farrell kept tearing up while he was doing it, and I don't blame her one bit.
There's also a decent space battle. Sisko senses a great disturbance in the force and has to go to his room. Kira takes over, and O'Brien basically saves the entire Alpha Quadrant.
Then, back at the station, it's goodbye to Dax. Sisko gives an introspective speech to her coffin. The people of Bajor are calling out to the Emissary of the Prophets for guidance in this, their darkest hour. And, thanks in part to an alliance that Sisko sacrificed his own principles for (and broke the law for), the Alphas are finally getting the upper hand on the Dominion...maybe.
So is Sisko energized by the faith of the Bajorans in him? Does he resolve to honor the memory of Dax by seeing the battle through to the end?
No. In a swerve that makes absolutely no sense, Sisko, our hero captain, responds to the crisis by going on vacation. In New Orleans.
I'm still scratching my head over this. It's an awful thing to have him do at any time, but it's a positively bizarre cliffhanger. If Sisko can't be bother to stick around for the Dominion War, why should I?
Three episodes ago, a non-com couldn't miss a work shift even though his daughter had turned feral. Now, the linchpin of the Federation's forces in the sector, and the bridge to a valuable ally, is just allowed to burn his sick days?
I could talk some more about how I don't understand this, but work calls. I will discuss this more...if you do, too.
You may accept his leaving better, after the next couple of episodes.
I like the episode, I think it does really give payoff for all the preparing to have a family in the last few episodes, and then Julian telling her it is very possible afterall (He had just told her in the aalst episode or so that it was very unlikely that a Trill and Klingon could produce offspring, and in this episode, he's telling her, the treatments are working, and she should be able to bear children for him, which on most shows would mean she'll be popping out babies in no time, and then bang, they pull the rug out from under you and kill her senselessly)
Hey, where's Admiral BarackMit ObamaNey been?
I like the episode, I think it does really give payoff for all the preparing to have a family in the last few episodes, and then Julian telling her it is very possible afterall (He had just told her in the aalst episode or so that it was very unlikely that a Trill and Klingon could produce offspring, and in this episode, he's telling her, the treatments are working, and she should be able to bear children for him, which on most shows would mean she'll be popping out babies in no time, and then bang, they pull the rug out from under you and kill her senselessly)
Hey, where's Admiral BarackMit ObamaNey been?
I don't know...I'm really curious to hear what he thinks of the past few episodes.
I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but I think that what Sisko was going through was something that we can't understand because of his special connection with the Prophets. He not only lost his gods, he personally failed them by ignoring their warning and he lost his best friend/mentor at the same time. He went into an emotional overload and couldn't sort out his feelings, so he ran away from them. That's how I see it.
I read a book once that detailed the writing process for this episode and it was a bit of a slog for them. They had a number of different ideas they wanted to address, then they were forced to write Jadzia out of the show, then they had budget problems and had to scale back some of the action. The original script had Dukat attacking the station with a small fleet of Dominion ships while the Federation fleet was at Chin'toka, Dukat stole the orb and headed into the wormhole, Jadzia gave chase in a runabout and was killed trying to stop him. To be honest, even that version of the story isn't entirely satisfactory, but it did give Jadzia a somewhat heroic death.
Someone claimed that he was banned for using a dual account, but no moderators have confirmed or denied this so I'm hopeful it's not true.
I'll have more to say later, but I would have started writing this episode w/ the one scene I think did work, Worf doing the Klingon Death Scream over Jadzia's body, then worked outwards from there.
I would have ended the season by having O'Brien say he could TECH the TECH to get the wormhole reopened, but they'd need someone to fly a runabout in, and there was a 90% chance they wouldn't survive. Last shot is Sisko in a runabout, pedal to the floor, headed towards what might be his imminent doom.
My problem with his leaving is that the last thing the Prophets told him was, "Don't leave Bajor." He leaves for a few hours and his best friend dies. Personally, I'd get back to Bajor as soon as I could and I'd stay there. I could have seen him resigning from Starfleet to go to Bajor, but going back to his dad's rings false to me. Since season 3, DS9's been his home, and Bajor's become his spiritual home. I really believe that's where this character would go in his time of need.
As it is, it feels like he's turning his back on Bajor, and his best friend's widower, when they need him the most.
It reminds me a bit of Riker in "Chain of Command," where the supposed hero's just acting sulky. Again, this is a guy who was an accessory to murder just a few weeks before because he was so desperate to defeat the Dominion. I just don't buy that the same character would run away, no matter how badly his faith was shaken.
Already saw "Image in the Sand." That episode didn't make me feel better about the decision, to put it lightly.
I would have ended the season by having O'Brien say he could TECH the TECH to get the wormhole reopened, but they'd need someone to fly a runabout in, and there was a 90% chance they wouldn't survive. Last shot is Sisko in a runabout, pedal to the floor, headed towards what might be his imminent doom.
My problem with his leaving is that the last thing the Prophets told him was, "Don't leave Bajor." He leaves for a few hours and his best friend dies. Personally, I'd get back to Bajor as soon as I could and I'd stay there. I could have seen him resigning from Starfleet to go to Bajor, but going back to his dad's rings false to me. Since season 3, DS9's been his home, and Bajor's become his spiritual home. I really believe that's where this character would go in his time of need.
As it is, it feels like he's turning his back on Bajor, and his best friend's widower, when they need him the most.
It reminds me a bit of Riker in "Chain of Command," where the supposed hero's just acting sulky. Again, this is a guy who was an accessory to murder just a few weeks before because he was so desperate to defeat the Dominion. I just don't buy that the same character would run away, no matter how badly his faith was shaken.
Already saw "Image in the Sand." That episode didn't make me feel better about the decision, to put it lightly.
That episode didn't make me feel any better about it either. Wake me up when it's time to play baseball
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