Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[Worf'sParmach]

Just wrote this whole long post about my problems with "Tears..." and it vaporized. Argh.

My biggest issue is this... Why did Jadzia stay on the station? Has the Defiant ever gone without her? Even more so, why take Kira and not Dax? It seemed like something they did simply for plot device because it went against that had been done previously.

And I completely agree- it would have been much better had she actually been pregnant. That could have even explained why she didn't go along with the Defiant. And actually getting pregnant would have given the biggest Wormhole-Alien skeptic on the station a real reason to go into the temple, and not just the hope that she might get knocked up one day in the future.

As far as Sisko leaving, at the time I thought it made sense. So much had gone wrong that him just needing a break was understandable. And it was really unclear if he was quitting or not, I mean they'd just killed off Jadzia so who knew what else could happen.

After seeing the subsequent episodes and where they went with it, I wish he'd just taken a long weekend on Bajor.

 

[TheGodBen]

My problem with his leaving is that the last thing the Prophets told him was, "Don't leave Bajor." He leaves for a few hours and his best friend dies. Personally, I'd get back to Bajor as soon as I could and I'd stay there. I could have seen him resigning from Starfleet to go to Bajor, but going back to his dad's rings false to me. Since season 3, DS9's been his home, and Bajor's become his spiritual home. I really believe that's where this character would go in his time of need.

As it is, it feels like he's turning his back on Bajor, and his best friend's widower, when they need him the most.

Because that's what it is, Sisko finally cracked. He's not going to Earth to find answers, he's going to Earth to get away from his troubles. Over the last year he has waded through a tonne of crap and the thing that kept him going was the vision of Benny Russell that the Prophets sent him. Now the Prophets are gone and he feels that he's to blame for that, as well as the death of his friend. What's more, there's an expectation put upon him by the Bajorans to find a way to reopen the wormhole and Sisko doesn't have a clue in how to go about that. It's too much hardship being put upon him at once and he, in a very unheroic move, decides to run away.

 

[Shatnertage]

I'll buy that, just because I love seeing ton spelled "tonne."

Still surprised that Starfleet's so obliging.

 

[apenpaap]

I agree that Tears of the Prophets is rather flawed with how it handled Jadzia's death so randomly. It was pretty much the worst way they could do it; I'd have preferred to have her accidentally fall over the promenade fence during rush hour and break her neck even.

 

[BlueStuff]

Not a huge fan of Tears of the Prophets. Image in the Sand, even less so, for various reasons. And the next episode.. well.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'll buy that, just because I love seeing ton spelled "tonne."

I guess you could say it gives my argument extra weight.

 

[Sindatur]

Hey, where's Admiral BarackMit ObamaNey been?

Someone claimed that he was banned for using a dual account, but no moderators have confirmed or denied this so I'm hopeful it's not true.

Having two nicks will get you banned? That's strange, many folks on other boards like to use alternate nicks to play games (er...not trolling games, but, role playing games or story collaboration and stuff). I hope it's not true, I've always appreciated reading Admiral Shran's contributions all across the Board, Trek side as well as General SciFi side.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

I agree that Tears of the Prophets is rather flawed with how it handled Jadzia's death so randomly. It was pretty much the worst way they could do it; I'd have preferred to have her accidentally fall over the promenade fence during rush hour and break her neck even.

 

[Shatnertage]

If you dig deep enough, you too can see an...

"Image in the Sand"

There's three different things going on here. Two of them are decent, one of them still has me scratching my head.

1. Kira's now running DS9. I don't totally get this. Clearly the station is important to the Federation. Admiral Ross is still in a position to basically give Kira orders (the Romulans). So why haven't they appointed a new station commander? Or even an interim station commander? Sisko had a lot of work to do. Is Kira doing his job, and being Bajoran Liaison now? This just bugs me, because it makes no sense for everyone to wait around for Sisko. The world's going to go on without him, and I think they definitely would have sent someone else to run the station.

But Kira's got her hands full with the Romulans. Cretak is a different kind of Romulan. I suspect she's a changeling who's just stirring up shit, like putting torpedoes around the hospital. Just a hunch. Too bad they didn't bring back Martha Hackett's character.

I really like Kira's new hairstyle. A bit pixieish.

2. Worf is dealing with his grief, but it's more than grief because Jadzia won't get into Stovokor. This makes the Bashir/Quark pity party pale in comparison, but then they sync up. Worf can dedicate a victory to her honor and get her in. Bashir's going along for the ride because it's important to Worf and Jadzia (although Siddig kind of looks like he's just going for the hell of it) and that means O'Brien, who's pledged to never leave his family again, is along for the very dangerous ride as well. Bashir going makes some sense; O'Brien makes zero sense.

A lot of this revolves around Vic's lounge again. Nice to hear some of "All the Way," but Vic has quickly become a crutch. Why do the characters have to talk to him to figure things out? It's like they suddenly got clueless.

3. Sisko's Vision Quest. This starts out, arguably, better than anything else because Avery Brooks is playing Thelonius Monk. At this point, I'd much, much rather watch Brooks play Monk or Bud Powell and talk about jazz than go through what feels like a very contrived way of dealing with his issues. But we only get a few bars of "Round Midnight." I wish they'd have scrapped the baseball fascination and made it jazz instead. I think Brooks would have liked a few episodes where Sisko got to sit in on a jam session with some jazz greats. I know I would have.

Then he has a vision, and he's digging in the sand. Suddenly, a woman's face appears, and for some reason I think we're in a Duran Duran video.

Eventually we find out it's Sarah, his real mom (!). He seems to take the news that the woman he knew and loved as his mother is not really his mother with surprising equanimity, to put it mildly. He seems mildly irked at his dad, but by the end of the episode they've patched things up and are ready to go on a scavenger hunt for the Orb of the Emissary together--but not before Sisko survives and assassination attempt.

So the Three Siskos are going to a planet we've never heard of to find a macguffin that the writers just invented. OK.

Then the New Dax shows up, wearing an ensign's uniform. This should be interesting.

 

[Shatnertage]

Speaking of Monk, here's a great teaser of him playing solo. "Round Midnight" runs about from :39 to :59:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1-SZO_NaNM[/yt]

If they did a Thelonious Monk biopic, anyone else think Avery Brooks would be great in the title role?

Anyway, I also saw "Shadows and Symbols"

I really don't have a ton to say about this one. Each of the three stories moves along to its conclusion. They did a good job of keeping the action moving.

In the station story, Kira spends the episode bluffing Cretak, and eventually wins. Was it because of Prophet influence? Maybe.

In the Stovokor story, Worf first grouses at the station guys, then comes to accept their presence. After some suspense, they blow up the sun and Jadzia gets into Stovokor. And it dawns on me how much I love J.G. Hertzler's voice.

Sisko's story is a little less straightforward for me. I don't really understand why Joseph is there, since he adds nothing to the action. I guess they just wanted to drag a 72 year-old guy out to Palmdale to walk around for a while. New Dax comes along, too. And here's what I think of New Dax:

Right away, it seems like this actress is much more...animated than Terry Farrell. I understand that they're playing different characters, but she just seems to pop more than Farrell did. It might be because she speaks more quickly, but she just seems more interesting. It's not that I dislike Farrell; she's obviously a talented actress who's had a long career. Did anyone see her in that "drilling to the core" movie with Wil Wheaton? But de Boer just seems to bring something different.

I really liked the post-regeneration daffiness. It felt a lot like Doctor Who. And something about the way Nicole de Boer talks reminds me of Peri.

Sisko's getting lured to a certain spot in the desert, where he digs up an orb. Then we get a vision of Benny Russell, in a psych ward, with Casey Biggs as Dr. Wykoff. Sisko's written his story all over the walls--I wonder if this was before or after Quills came out--and Wykoff says this is a big mistake. It's all fake. No, it's real! No, it's fake.

On a meta level, this scene makes me very uneasy. Anytime that the writers write about someone having trouble writing...well, it's a sign that the story might not be coming naturally. Oy vey.

But it's just the Pah-Wraiths messing with Sisko, and he then opens up the orb box, which lets out a Prophet, which reopens the wormhole and kills the pah-wraith that had gone in there. I think.

We also find out that Sisko's birth was engineered by the Prophets, in a way that doesn't make a ton of sense to me since up until now they've mostly been content to do their God stuff on Bajor. Now they're puppet masters pulling strings on Earth. I guess it's possible, but it doesn't make a ton of sense within the story as it's been told for the past six seasons. I can buy them intervening in the wormhole and destroying the Dominion fleet, but this latest twist seems to be pushing it.

 

[BennyRussel]

1. Avery Brooks IS Monk

Regarding Nicky de Boer vs. Terry Farrell, I think Farrell got caught up in playing "wise old being", "seven lifetimes of knowledge" blah blah blah.

The character of Jadzia Dax never really took off for me because she seemed smug and too self-reverent.

Then Ezri came in: she was excited, nervous, a little wobbly, confused, taking it all in with wonder. She was new to the game and hadn't found her footing. I could relate to her!

Jadzia rarely showed those types of emotions.

I understand that Jadzia and Ezri were two different women at different points in their lives, but I think the Jadzia character just didn't have enough energy to be truly engaging.

By the way I don't think it was Farrell's "fault", I think it was the way the character was envisioned and written. I think they missed the boat.

I've said it before, I wish they had made the Jadzia/Ezri swap at the beginning of season 5 instead of season 7. That would have given them 3 years to develop her instead of one.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

Anyway, I also saw "Shadows and Symbols"

...

In the Stovokor story, Worf first grouses at the station guys, then comes to accept their presence. After some suspense, they blow up the sun and Jadzia gets into Stovokor. And it dawns on me how much I love J.G. Hertzler's voice.

My only gripe about this storyline was that they brought Quark along for comedic relief and I felt like it cheapened it. Julian and Miles were actually taking is seriously, Quark was just complaining and cracking jokes.

And it was in this season that I realized that Martok is a better "better half" for Worf than Jadzia was I actually think I like Martok more than Worf.

Oh, and I just watched "Redemption" last night and Kurn used a very similar fly too close to the sun maneuver in that episode as well.

Right away, it seems like this actress is much more...animated than Terry Farrell. I understand that they're playing different characters, but she just seems to pop more than Farrell did. It might be because she speaks more quickly, but she just seems more interesting. But de Boer just seems to bring something different.

Back when this all first aired I was one of the many who cried heresy at watching a regular essentially be re-cast. But upon rewatching it I have really grown to like what Ezri brings. I won't go so far as to say she's better than Jadzia, because part of what makes Ezri good is that she comes after Jadzia. I have read that the writers admittedly didn't know what to do with Jadzia; it's as if they made her to "wise and all-knowing" and didn't have anywhere to go with her character. Ezri definitely had room for growth.

We also find out that Sisko's birth was engineered by the Prophets, in a way that doesn't make a ton of sense to me since up until now they've mostly been content to do their God stuff on Bajor. Now they're puppet masters pulling strings on Earth. I guess it's possible, but it doesn't make a ton of sense within the story as it's been told for the past six seasons. I can buy them intervening in the wormhole and destroying the Dominion fleet, but this latest twist seems to be pushing it.

To me, the whole "Sisko's really a Prophet" thing is the weakest part of S7. It takes away Sisko's free will to want to be a part of Bajor which to me is more impactful and makes it a pre-destined he has no choice kind of thing. What they do with it in the last few episodes is even more annoying.

It's not that I dislike Farrell; she's obviously a talented actress who's had a long career. Did anyone see her in that "drilling to the core" movie with Wil Wheaton?

I've seen that movie at 2am on SyFy. I'm hoping that's sarcasm that I'm reading

 

[Shatnertage]

That was a good bad movie, if you know what I mean.

I wasn't being sarcastic about Farrell herself, though. I've got a lot of respect for anyone who can eke out a career in acting--it's clearly pretty tough.

What I'm wondering is if they creative team was deliberately giving her "post-regeneration" goofiness. It really reminds me of Doctor Who.

I know feelings around here run pretty high on Ezri/Jadzia. I honestly couldn't pick a side at this point if I had to. They both bring something different to Dax, in a good way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

In all ways, I prefer Ezri, both in terms of identifying personally with her, and in terms of the character herself. I almost wished Jadzia had been bumped off sooner.

 

[Shatnertage]

What is it about Ezri that you identify with? Without spoilers (if possible).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well...you haven't seen where it really hits home for me yet. But her personality reminds me strongly of myself. Even on a totally superficial level, her appearance reminds me of myself, since Nicole de Boer and I both have Dutch ancestry, and are somewhat slight in build and stature.

 

[BennyRussel]

What is it about Ezri that you identify with? Without spoilers (if possible).

Without spoilers I would say that I relate to her being a little unsure of herself in a new situation. She was thrust into something she wasn't sure she could handle and had to prove herself to herself.

I appreciated that and would have liked for the writers to have more time to show her growth.

Jadzia (I assume) may have gone through that off-screen before going to DS9, but by the time she got there, she was so sure of herself that it bordered on smugness.

 

[Shatnertage]

They say that if you leave one thing on a CRT display too long, you get an...

"Afterimage"

Or, meet the New Dax. (Not the) same as the old Dax.

The parallels with Doctor who continue, as Dax struggles to settle into her new regeneration...er, host.

I liked this episode because at first it had a distinct A story (Dax) and B story (Garak), which it brought together, pulled apart, then brought back together for the conclusion.

It deals with a really weird circumstance, from Worf's perspective. His wife died, and now he sees someone who has all of her memories but isn't her. It's different from Sisko/Curzon because there's obviously a lot more intimacy there. I'm not surprised that he's a little freaked out by it.

Those who don't like Bashir's previous stalkerish stuff probably winced when we found out that he really did have a shot with Jadzia. And it brings up something that doesn't exactly bug me, but that I find a little weird: the way Quark and Bashir keep rattling on about their undying love for Jadzia, even though it was completely unrequited (and, for most of her run, was confined to simple flirting, which both guys did with just about every female who showed up). It's just kind of strange.

My favorite scene was when Garak, the legendary interrogator, has the tables turned on him and Ezri breaks him down completely. It wasn't anything she did deliberately...or was it? She seems to have good instincts, at the very least, pressing him when he needed pressing.

I liked that scene so much I rewound it and watched it again. It's neat how in Netflix you get snapshots of the episode as you rewind it. Looks like a storyboard, and you can really focus on the body language of the characters.

At the end, we get Ezri signing on for good, after a little bit of Grumpy Sisko. But he shouldn't be in too bad a mood, since he'll get to play baseball soon.

 

[BlueStuff]

Afterimage is a wonderful episode. One of my all-time favorites, I might go so far as to say.

 

[TheGodBen]

To me, the whole "Sisko's really a Prophet" thing is the weakest part of S7. It takes away Sisko's free will to want to be a part of Bajor which to me is more impactful and makes it a pre-destined he has no choice kind of thing.

Ah, but if Sisko hadn't moved to Bajor, made it his home, and become the Emissary then the Prophets wouldn't have created him.