Another great one. I'm starting to remember why Season 6 is my favorite. I remember reading spoilers for this episode before it aired and thinking "They'd better not pull some crazy 'Dukat is really Kira's father' non-sense."
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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Another great one. I'm starting to remember why Season 6 is my favorite. I remember reading spoilers for this episode before it aired and thinking "They'd better not pull some crazy 'Dukat is really Kira's father' non-sense."
If you had told me a few months ago that I'd see an episode that's basically Avery Brooks talking to the camera, and I'd think it was the greatest episode of Trek, I'd have thought you were nuts. But it's brilliant.
I was so inspired I watched two episodes last night, one of them which I surprisingly liked quite a bit. The other one put me to sleep (as in literally, eyes closed and no longer awake). When I have time later I will share my thoughts.
I was so inspired I watched two episodes last night, one of them which I surprisingly liked quite a bit. The other one put me to sleep (as in literally, eyes closed and no longer awake). When I have time later I will share my thoughts.
I watched Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels last night (Among others). Interesting that the Prophets kept referring to The Sisko's life as "The Game", gives a possibility for a whole new appreciation for "Move Along Home" (One of the least liked episodes of the Series) if they did that on purpose
Awesome 6 episode arc, I had forgotten how good it was.
Sons and Daughters I don't understand the complaints about it, it makes sense at his age, that Alexander after all this time would want to finally get to know his father and would do whatever he needed to make that happen, even if he isn't cut out to be a Warrior.
Next up is Waltz, so, hopefully be catching up soon with Shatnertage
Awesome 6 episode arc, I had forgotten how good it was.
Sons and Daughters I don't understand the complaints about it, it makes sense at his age, that Alexander after all this time would want to finally get to know his father and would do whatever he needed to make that happen, even if he isn't cut out to be a Warrior.
Next up is Waltz, so, hopefully be catching up soon with Shatnertage
The Game refers to baseball, which Sisko used as an analogy for living in a linear time stream in Emissary.
Oh, I realize that, but, look at LOST with it's Backgammon game (And other references to games throughout), and black and white and the whole game of "the Chosen One", that's the line of thought I was following
With regards to Bashir at this point, he's a character who has become much more interesting to me. As I see it, he's more or less between two poles. The first, from which he very slowly departed from the beginning, was the young romantic, who was more charming than interesting. The other, much darker pole toward which he could have been irreversibly pulled if he had become a real secret agent is the genetically enhanced superman whose bonds with more ordinary people would be tenuous at best.
This aspect of him I find quite tragic and compelling, since his perspective isolates him from his friends and colleagues, though he chooses to continue fighting alongside them in a war he can't imagine winning. I think this adds even more depth to his friendship with the Chief; Bashir must be much less pleasant to be around by now, but he needs a friend like O'Brian to keep him anchored now more than ever.
What I loved about Alexander Siddiq's performance in Inquisition is that he comes across as subtly wounded; he eats scones and talks to his teddy bear, but there's something in his eyes that suggests heartache. There is an upcoming episode that deals with this more explicitly, and it's a somber delight.
This aspect of him I find quite tragic and compelling, since his perspective isolates him from his friends and colleagues, though he chooses to continue fighting alongside them in a war he can't imagine winning. I think this adds even more depth to his friendship with the Chief; Bashir must be much less pleasant to be around by now, but he needs a friend like O'Brian to keep him anchored now more than ever.
What I loved about Alexander Siddiq's performance in Inquisition is that he comes across as subtly wounded; he eats scones and talks to his teddy bear, but there's something in his eyes that suggests heartache. There is an upcoming episode that deals with this more explicitly, and it's a somber delight.
Watched up through His Way last night.
Waltz, is definitely an awesome psychological examination, and wonderfully played, as is In The Pale Moonlight I agree with all your comments, and it was nice reading them prior to viewing the episodes.
His Way - I recall, during first run, I didn't really think much of the Vic Fontaine episodes (Maybe because I was only getting an episode a week, and anxious to see as much of the ramping war as I could get, or maybe because they fall apart later on?).
So, I kinda groaned when I turned this one on, and wasn't expecting much, but, it was a great introduction to him, and just how of "not Just a Hologram" he is, IMHO, it builds upon the whole Moriarity thing in TNG.
Trek has never been great with Romance (They hit it right on occasion, but, they fail more often then they succeed, IMHO). Odo and Kira however, I believe is the best Romance Trek has ever done (I also like T'Pol and Tucker in Enterprise mostly). So long Odo has been in love with Kira, since the show started, and years before that as well, and to finally see it "consumated" was so rewarding.
Side note, I forget what episode it was, but, I hadn't remembered that Odo had "Humanoid Sex" with the Female Changeling, so, that was kinda startling to notice. I'm looking forward to the upcoming arc for her.
Waltz, is definitely an awesome psychological examination, and wonderfully played, as is In The Pale Moonlight I agree with all your comments, and it was nice reading them prior to viewing the episodes.
His Way - I recall, during first run, I didn't really think much of the Vic Fontaine episodes (Maybe because I was only getting an episode a week, and anxious to see as much of the ramping war as I could get, or maybe because they fall apart later on?).
So, I kinda groaned when I turned this one on, and wasn't expecting much, but, it was a great introduction to him, and just how of "not Just a Hologram" he is, IMHO, it builds upon the whole Moriarity thing in TNG.
Trek has never been great with Romance (They hit it right on occasion, but, they fail more often then they succeed, IMHO). Odo and Kira however, I believe is the best Romance Trek has ever done (I also like T'Pol and Tucker in Enterprise mostly). So long Odo has been in love with Kira, since the show started, and years before that as well, and to finally see it "consumated" was so rewarding.
Side note, I forget what episode it was, but, I hadn't remembered that Odo had "Humanoid Sex" with the Female Changeling, so, that was kinda startling to notice. I'm looking forward to the upcoming arc for her.
Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it...
"His Way"
This is one of those episodes that I thought was going to be absolutely horrendous when I read the blurb. I don't know if I've said it in this thread, but holodeck episodes are generally among my least favorite episodes. At the same time, though, "Hollow Pursuits" and "The Killing Game" are personal favorites. So I was leery.
Strike number two: it's a holodeck episode set in 1960s Vegas. Studying Vegas casinos is what I do for a living, so having to watch anything set in Vegas is a bit of a busman's holiday for me. The pop culture stuff usually tends to get a lot wrong, too, so there's that. I can only imagine what physicists feel like watching sci fi. To make things even more run, I'd just taught a class where I discussed the impact of the Rat Pack on Las Vegas, complete with tons of video of them performing, and I'd just been interviewed for some forthcoming History Channel documentary about the Rat Pack. Quite a coincidence.
Potential strike three: we've just had a run of some smart, intense episodes, so there's got to be a let-down soon, right?
But I kept an open mind. After all, it might not be that bad. I'm glad I did. This was actually a great episode.
James Darren was great as Vic Fontaine. I'd definitely never seen any of his episodes so, like a lot of other stuff in this stretch of DS9, this was new territory for me. But I think you can understand why I was a little chary of this episode. Who's the best-known example of the holodeck recreating a 20th century entertainer? Joe Piscopo. And while "The Outrageous Okona" had plenty more problems than his performance, the thought of some lounge singer and Bashir mugging on stage didn't really appeal to me.
But Darren was great. I'm not that familiar with his work, but he really nailed the Sinatra-esque singer here, even though I think he sounds more like Tony Bennett. And, strangely, I didn't have any problems with a new character suddenly being cooler than the regulars and giving them advice about romance.
I'm most impressed that they paid to license five "real" songs for the episode, instead of just noodling around playing chords or singing stuff that's in the public domain. It really helped to give the episode an authentic feel, and it made it a lot more enjoyable for me.
The romantic comedy stuff was actually romantic and funny. You could debate over whether Odo and Kira should be together romantically (I'll admit that, within the universe of DS9, it doesn't make a ton of sense to me), but I don't think you can fault how they were brought together here.
Interesting that they did a Vegas-centric episode here. Could it have had anything to do with the opening of Star Trek: The Experience? I did notice that Quark made Bashir a Warp Core Breach, which is product placement if I've ever heard of it. Also, this was when Swingers was big, so you can't really fault them for going this route. It was handled way, way better than Tom Paris's cheesy 1950s obsession, that's for sure.
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it...
"His Way"
This is one of those episodes that I thought was going to be absolutely horrendous when I read the blurb. I don't know if I've said it in this thread, but holodeck episodes are generally among my least favorite episodes. At the same time, though, "Hollow Pursuits" and "The Killing Game" are personal favorites. So I was leery.
Strike number two: it's a holodeck episode set in 1960s Vegas. Studying Vegas casinos is what I do for a living, so having to watch anything set in Vegas is a bit of a busman's holiday for me. The pop culture stuff usually tends to get a lot wrong, too, so there's that. I can only imagine what physicists feel like watching sci fi. To make things even more run, I'd just taught a class where I discussed the impact of the Rat Pack on Las Vegas, complete with tons of video of them performing, and I'd just been interviewed for some forthcoming History Channel documentary about the Rat Pack. Quite a coincidence.
Potential strike three: we've just had a run of some smart, intense episodes, so there's got to be a let-down soon, right?
But I kept an open mind. After all, it might not be that bad. I'm glad I did. This was actually a great episode.
James Darren was great as Vic Fontaine. I'd definitely never seen any of his episodes so, like a lot of other stuff in this stretch of DS9, this was new territory for me. But I think you can understand why I was a little chary of this episode. Who's the best-known example of the holodeck recreating a 20th century entertainer? Joe Piscopo. And while "The Outrageous Okona" had plenty more problems than his performance, the thought of some lounge singer and Bashir mugging on stage didn't really appeal to me.
But Darren was great. I'm not that familiar with his work, but he really nailed the Sinatra-esque singer here, even though I think he sounds more like Tony Bennett. And, strangely, I didn't have any problems with a new character suddenly being cooler than the regulars and giving them advice about romance.
I'm most impressed that they paid to license five "real" songs for the episode, instead of just noodling around playing chords or singing stuff that's in the public domain. It really helped to give the episode an authentic feel, and it made it a lot more enjoyable for me.
The romantic comedy stuff was actually romantic and funny. You could debate over whether Odo and Kira should be together romantically (I'll admit that, within the universe of DS9, it doesn't make a ton of sense to me), but I don't think you can fault how they were brought together here.
Interesting that they did a Vegas-centric episode here. Could it have had anything to do with the opening of Star Trek: The Experience? I did notice that Quark made Bashir a Warp Core Breach, which is product placement if I've ever heard of it. Also, this was when Swingers was big, so you can't really fault them for going this route. It was handled way, way better than Tom Paris's cheesy 1950s obsession, that's for sure.
Opinions on His Way are rather divided, from what I remember. I loved it. Especially the Kira hologram singing Fever. When Vic told Odo "you've been dancing with the real McCoy", that sounded really weird in a Star Trek setting (I'm familiar with the expression, but in Star Trek McCoy makes me think of a cranky old doctor), and I half expected Kira to turn into Bones for a moment.
^ That would have been hysterical.
I was hoping the Kira/Odo romance would play out somewhat differently; I thought Odo's brief flame with the other humanoid woman a season back would be the ideal moment for Kira to be a bit stung and to begin to take Odo seriously as a potential lover, perhaps getting increasingly frustrated and confused until her angst exploded against his.
Instead, the main obstacle to their getting together has been Odo's nervousness, and I can't seem to recall any instances of Kira expressing her feelings towards Odo hitherto. So, the whole thing played out more as Odo-gets-girl rather than as a two-way struggle.
In any case, though, I did enjoy Vic and his common sense assessments ("you're crazy about that broad"
). And while Visitor is always attractive, I didn't think it would necessarily work for her to play coquette (I'm thinking of the over-the-top holo-suite spy episode), but in this case she was tantalizing. And the first kiss worked well, too.
Instead, the main obstacle to their getting together has been Odo's nervousness, and I can't seem to recall any instances of Kira expressing her feelings towards Odo hitherto. So, the whole thing played out more as Odo-gets-girl rather than as a two-way struggle.
In any case, though, I did enjoy Vic and his common sense assessments ("you're crazy about that broad"
). And while Visitor is always attractive, I didn't think it would necessarily work for her to play coquette (I'm thinking of the over-the-top holo-suite spy episode), but in this case she was tantalizing. And the first kiss worked well, too.
I was hoping the Kira/Odo romance would play out somewhat differently; I thought Odo's brief flame with the other humanoid woman a season back would be the ideal moment for Kira to be a bit stung and to begin to take Odo seriously as a potential lover, perhaps getting increasingly frustrated and confused until her angst exploded against his.
Instead, the main obstacle to their getting together has been Odo's nervousness, and I can't seem to recall any instances of Kira expressing her feelings towards Odo hitherto. So, the whole thing played out more as Odo-gets-girl rather than as a two-way struggle.
In any case, though, I did enjoy Vic and his common sense assessments ("you're crazy about that broad"
I like your scenario better than the one we got. As most know around these parts, I hate the character of Vic pretty vehemently. I am also a huge Kira/Odo shipper. I was pissed that it was Vic who had to facilitate them getting together. However, the yelling and kissing at the end of the episode sort of made it all worth it. That's the Kira and Odo I know and love!
I can't think of a more boring title than...
"The Reckoning"
This one gets the prize for literally putting me to sleep. It had been a tough day for me, true, but this was definitely not the strongest episode. Combined with the effects of a medicinal dose of "Deep Space Wine," it put me down for the count at the point that should have been the climax. There's nothing at all dirty about that last sentence.
According to MA this had been through several rewrites, and it shows. It's never really explained (or at least to me) exactly what a prophet and a pah wraith were doing trapped in a tablet in the first place. Some kudos for paralleling Sisko with Abraham and the Binding of Isaac, but this one was just kind of there for me. It's not really clear why, if the P and PW fight it out with energy streams, they even need human hosts. At least I didn't catch the explanation.
When Sisko's standing outside of the temple and services are about to start, I make a few jokes about them needing him to help fill out the minyan.
When Kira went all prophet, my wife said she looked like the woman from Ghostbusters.
But Kai Winn's semi-heel turn didn't make a ton of sense to me. For one, I can't figure out how her character could figure out how to execute a fairly complex technical operation in Ops, given that she has no experience in Ops. Maybe it would have made sense for her to pull a gun on someone to get it done, or to convince a Bajoran engineer it was what the Prophets wanted. Just kind of sloppy, as it is. Would you expect O'Brien to be able to lead services?
Anyway, it wasn't awful, but it certainly wasn't great.
"The Reckoning"
This one gets the prize for literally putting me to sleep. It had been a tough day for me, true, but this was definitely not the strongest episode. Combined with the effects of a medicinal dose of "Deep Space Wine," it put me down for the count at the point that should have been the climax. There's nothing at all dirty about that last sentence.
According to MA this had been through several rewrites, and it shows. It's never really explained (or at least to me) exactly what a prophet and a pah wraith were doing trapped in a tablet in the first place. Some kudos for paralleling Sisko with Abraham and the Binding of Isaac, but this one was just kind of there for me. It's not really clear why, if the P and PW fight it out with energy streams, they even need human hosts. At least I didn't catch the explanation.
When Sisko's standing outside of the temple and services are about to start, I make a few jokes about them needing him to help fill out the minyan.
When Kira went all prophet, my wife said she looked like the woman from Ghostbusters.
But Kai Winn's semi-heel turn didn't make a ton of sense to me. For one, I can't figure out how her character could figure out how to execute a fairly complex technical operation in Ops, given that she has no experience in Ops. Maybe it would have made sense for her to pull a gun on someone to get it done, or to convince a Bajoran engineer it was what the Prophets wanted. Just kind of sloppy, as it is. Would you expect O'Brien to be able to lead services?
Anyway, it wasn't awful, but it certainly wasn't great.
Yeah, The Reckoning is a snoozefest, and from what I remember
the first episode of that awful Pagh-Wraith storyline. Though Covenant might've been before it, I can't remember as it's been a while since I saw season 6. But at least Covenant was good and didn't (I think) actually feature the Pagh-Wraits, just cult leader Dukat.
Watching another episode after the last one put me to sleep might be described as...
"Valiant"
If you've ever wondered what a Starfleet Academy series would look like, this is it, although probably with a lot less of everyone getting killed.
It's an interesting premise that reminds me a little of Equinox, minus the ectoplasm thingies that Ransom was harvesting. A crew cut off from everyone else deals with adversity, and its captain makes a few bad decisions. Nice episode for Nog, and it's great to see Jake finally getting something to do.
I thought that Nog should have outranked everyone, but MA makes it clear that in Starfleet this isn't true.
So basically I think of this episode as Hulk-smashing together Equinox with Charge of the Light Brigade with some Lord of the Flies thrown in. The crew follows their captain, even though he's completely wrong, right into the jaws of death. With a casualty rate of over 90%, it's hard to argue with Nog's assessment that Watters was a bad captain.
Nog's final speech pretty much made the episode for me. I don't usually need someone to spell it out for me like that, but it wasn't totally clear whether Watters really was a bad captain or just had bad advice from his science officer. They made the "hit it with TECH and it'll fall apart" thing sound pretty fool-proof. Even though it was dangerous to get into a position to TECH, it's not totally clear to me why it didn't work. Was it not really a lock that the TECH would work? Would a better captain have said that the odds were against them, even if the TECH did work? That's what Jake says.
For a change of pace episode focusing on the kids, this wasn't bad.
"Valiant"
If you've ever wondered what a Starfleet Academy series would look like, this is it, although probably with a lot less of everyone getting killed.
It's an interesting premise that reminds me a little of Equinox, minus the ectoplasm thingies that Ransom was harvesting. A crew cut off from everyone else deals with adversity, and its captain makes a few bad decisions. Nice episode for Nog, and it's great to see Jake finally getting something to do.
I thought that Nog should have outranked everyone, but MA makes it clear that in Starfleet this isn't true.
So basically I think of this episode as Hulk-smashing together Equinox with Charge of the Light Brigade with some Lord of the Flies thrown in. The crew follows their captain, even though he's completely wrong, right into the jaws of death. With a casualty rate of over 90%, it's hard to argue with Nog's assessment that Watters was a bad captain.
Nog's final speech pretty much made the episode for me. I don't usually need someone to spell it out for me like that, but it wasn't totally clear whether Watters really was a bad captain or just had bad advice from his science officer. They made the "hit it with TECH and it'll fall apart" thing sound pretty fool-proof. Even though it was dangerous to get into a position to TECH, it's not totally clear to me why it didn't work. Was it not really a lock that the TECH would work? Would a better captain have said that the odds were against them, even if the TECH did work? That's what Jake says.
For a change of pace episode focusing on the kids, this wasn't bad.
Good Lord, Star Trek, what did I ever do to you? Why did you give me...
"Profit and Lace"
I won't lie to you; I'd heard a lot about this episode before I watched it and knew it would be bad.
But there's Bad Trek and then there's just plain bad Trek. Case in point: most fans hate "Haven." I love "Haven," only partially because of the comic brilliance of Mr. Homn; there's lots of great comedy in there. Most fans revile "Spock's Brain;" it's one of my favorite third season episodes, just because it's so bad that it's great. I even have a fantasy that one day there will be a Vegas show called "Spock's Brain: The Musical." Back to another last-season episode, most fans despise "Sub Rosa," but I view it as a brilliantly droll synthesis of Trek with a gothic romance novel. Clearly it was meant to be a comedy. No episode where a character's granny's corpse sits up in her casket can be taken seriously.
"Profit and Lace," I thought, might be a similarly great Bad Trek episode. But no, it was just bad Trek. Any show that can make Shawn Wallace so annoying that you'd rather punch yourself in the head than listen to him is just bad TV. There was one scene hear the beginning that combined Zek shrieking with Rom moaning in ways that seemed calculated to drive viewers away, to put it mildly.
Reading MA, it becomes clear that they didn't know exactly what they were doing this one. Was it comedy? A serious espousal of feminism? It doesn't seem to have been either, but some of the creators thought it was both.
I'll say this: when the director shows up and he's got his arms crossed the entire time he's on screen, and seems to be trying to stay as far away from the camera as possible, you know you're in big, big trouble.
The strange thing is, Trek's done gender-bending well. Not in "Turnabout Intruder," though I don't fault Shatner's performance there. But Voyager's "Body and Soul" was brilliant, so I thought that maybe we'd get some of that vibe here. (Yes, I know "Body and Soul" wasn't even conceived at this point, but I'm just going by what I've seen.)
But no, we don't get anything even remotely resembling comedy that's actually funny. Instead, it's all just annoying. There's some moderately amusing stuff about Rom getting in touch with his feminine side, but there's nothing really funny here.
And that's all I have to say about "Profit and Lace." Please tell me there's nothing this bad waiting for me in season 7.
"Profit and Lace"
I won't lie to you; I'd heard a lot about this episode before I watched it and knew it would be bad.
But there's Bad Trek and then there's just plain bad Trek. Case in point: most fans hate "Haven." I love "Haven," only partially because of the comic brilliance of Mr. Homn; there's lots of great comedy in there. Most fans revile "Spock's Brain;" it's one of my favorite third season episodes, just because it's so bad that it's great. I even have a fantasy that one day there will be a Vegas show called "Spock's Brain: The Musical." Back to another last-season episode, most fans despise "Sub Rosa," but I view it as a brilliantly droll synthesis of Trek with a gothic romance novel. Clearly it was meant to be a comedy. No episode where a character's granny's corpse sits up in her casket can be taken seriously.
"Profit and Lace," I thought, might be a similarly great Bad Trek episode. But no, it was just bad Trek. Any show that can make Shawn Wallace so annoying that you'd rather punch yourself in the head than listen to him is just bad TV. There was one scene hear the beginning that combined Zek shrieking with Rom moaning in ways that seemed calculated to drive viewers away, to put it mildly.
Reading MA, it becomes clear that they didn't know exactly what they were doing this one. Was it comedy? A serious espousal of feminism? It doesn't seem to have been either, but some of the creators thought it was both.
I'll say this: when the director shows up and he's got his arms crossed the entire time he's on screen, and seems to be trying to stay as far away from the camera as possible, you know you're in big, big trouble.
The strange thing is, Trek's done gender-bending well. Not in "Turnabout Intruder," though I don't fault Shatner's performance there. But Voyager's "Body and Soul" was brilliant, so I thought that maybe we'd get some of that vibe here. (Yes, I know "Body and Soul" wasn't even conceived at this point, but I'm just going by what I've seen.)
But no, we don't get anything even remotely resembling comedy that's actually funny. Instead, it's all just annoying. There's some moderately amusing stuff about Rom getting in touch with his feminine side, but there's nothing really funny here.
And that's all I have to say about "Profit and Lace." Please tell me there's nothing this bad waiting for me in season 7.
The weak part of Valiant is that the kids are just so, so unlikable. Forget that what they're doing is foolish and reckless. It's like someone put Charlie X in charge of a star ship.
There's nothing this bad waiting for you in season 7. There are one or two duds, including an "O'Brien must suffer" episode that I don't really care for, but nothing approaches the abysmalness that is Profit and Lace.
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