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Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

Now I'm babysitting the...

"Children of Time"

Can I just talk about how awesome Rene Auberjonois is? Even before we got to see him without the heavy make-up in this episode, I was struck by how powerful a performance he was giving. The tease was great--his reaction to finding out Kira's single again was just perfect. And I absolutely fell in love with the shot where he doesn't say a word, but you can see exactly what he's thinking in his eyes. Brilliant.

My wife pointed out that it would be nice if the Prophets went and ahead and told you who you were supposed to be with, instead of just ruining your current relationships. She has a point there.

I thought that this episode seemed a little familiar, and then I remembered "E2." Of course, this one was first.

This was another episode that worked for me because it had a coherent emotional arc. In this, it was a lot like "Soldiers of the Empire." The Jem'Hadar aren't destroyed because the Klingons have shifted the phase variance of their photon torpedos; they die because Worf is willing to sacrifice his life to help Martok get his balls back. That's a story. In this one, the colonists don't die because O'Brien can't compensate for a quantum fluctuation; they die because Odo loves Kira and wants her to live. Again, that's a real story that makes sense regardless of genre.

There were a few great moments. O'Brien's wanting to go home, for example, was very real, as was his observation that Worf hardly ever saw Alexander. Which leads me to my favorite moment: Worf's pride at seeing the Sons of Mogh. It's everything he's always wanted: a proud house of warriors to call his own, and it speaks to his private anxieties about not being Klingon enough. This was a great Worf episode, and he's becoming a favorite character of mine.

Ditto for both Dax's guilt over what they'd done.

And the Odo stuff was great, with brilliant acting behind it.

One thing I disagree with was after the resolution. It was already obvious that Odo had changed the course--they didn't need the coda to spell it out for the viewer. I wish they'd have had a little bit of faith in us there. And having "young" Odo know about what happened really puts the characters in an awkward place, which they've started ignoring with the next episode.

Aside from that, this was one of my favorites. I loved this episode so much, that I talked myself into watching a second episode....
 
This was another episode that worked for me because it had a coherent emotional arc. In this, it was a lot like "Soldiers of the Empire." The Jem'Hadar aren't destroyed because the Klingons have shifted the phase variance of their photon torpedos; they die because Worf is willing to sacrifice his life to help Martok get his balls back. That's a story. In this one, the colonists don't die because O'Brien can't compensate for a quantum fluctuation; they die because Odo loves Kira and wants her to live. Again, that's a real story that makes sense regardless of genre.

Well said. :) It's good that the writers realize this - in the earlier seasons, character-based stories or political stories were almost always better than anomaly stories. Realizing that "popular sci-fi as a setting for drama" works better than "popular sci-fi as a poor man's substitute for hard sci-fi" is one of DS9's strengths.
 
Ah, Soldiers of the Empire. I remember it well, truly an honorable episode to behold. In particular Lesik's monologue about the Cardassians...
 
Ah, Soldiers of the Empire. I remember it well, truly an honorable episode to behold. In particular Lesik's monologue about the Cardassians...

Yes, it was interesting to see that Klingons are complex enough to have varied motives in how they view their foes. :) You might think they'd value the Jem'Hadar more, as the Jemmies "live to fight" and are all-round hardasses. But we see Leskit arguing that the Cardassian is a more respectable foe for having an actual motive in fighting, not just fighting for the sake of it. Interesting and arguably encouraging, coming from a Klingon. A shame the second part of his argument was "we're doomed; the Dominion is the future".
 
It's good to see a character go out in a...

"Blaze of Glory"

Another great episode--we're really on a roll. Up until now, I'd had DS9 below Voyager in terms of overall quality, but I don't recall Voyager having a sustained run like this one. Subtract the two Ferengi episodes, and we haven't had a real clunker (by my reckoning, anyway) since "Rapture." For most of its run I had Voyager at about 50/50, with good and bad episodes just about balancing each other out. Even though I think you can make an argument that the acting on Voyager was usually stronger than DS9 (but that's a subject for another thread, and it'll always be subjective anyway), the stories are clearly delivering better on DS9. But as someone who's mostly sitting through the show for the first time, I have to be fair and say that the show hasn't really fired on all cylinders until now for me. The first four seasons are easily 50/50 or worse for me, and that's an awful lot of bad stuff to be overlooking. But I don't think any Trek series has been consistently good. For every "Devil in the Dark," you've always had an "Alternative Factor." For whatever reason, quality control has never been Trek's strong point. And I can live with that, because when it's good, it's very good.

Anyway, back to this episode. It's great because you've got a strong performance from Brooks, great stuff from a guest star (Kenneth Marshall), and even a satisfying B story. Everything is just clicking nearly perfectly here. I can only imagine how great it feels behind the scenes to see things coming together like this.

But I think I missed something. When were all the Maquis wiped out? Did I miss an episode, or did I just forget about that? The latter is definitely possible. I remember the VOY episode when Torres was depressed after hearing about the Maquis being destroyed, but I don't remember it happening on DS9.

Anyway, the surviving Maquis have launched deadly missiles of death at Cardassia, and only Eddington can help Sisko stop them.

They get some great scenes together, with plenty of good character stuff for Sisko as well as Eddington. I don't totally buy Eddington as a tactical genius who was the leader of the Maquis, though. I get him being a disgruntled Starfleeter who does his part with the Maquis, but I don't see him being in a bigger leadership position than, say, Cal Hudson. Maybe he took over for Hudson as top dog after Hudson was killed? Who knows?

There's some shoot-em-up at the base, and Eddington gets to die the hero's death he's always wanted. Seems like a strange thing to want (I'd be satisfied with taking a long paid vacation in New Zealand), but that's your character arc.

How about that B story? Nog's got quite a pair on him, doesn't he? Great stuff.

This was another fine episode.
 
Quick turnaround for...

"Empok Nor"

It's another great episode. There's a very Alien feel to it, which works well, and Jay Chattaway's score really made the atmosphere that much more suspenseful. It seems that whenever I notice that the music is really good, Jay Chattaway's written it. Is it because he's that much better a composer than the others, or do they just give him the episodes with less dialog, where you hear the music better?

The episode is well-constructed as a thriller, though if you think about it it doesn't make a ton of sense. Why leave two zonked-out soldiers in stasis if you've already got the place booby-trapped? It just seems like there's a lot that could go wrong with that plan.

Ironically, Nog wears a red shirt and survives.

I'm surprised that they "let" Garak murder a Starfleeter without any real consequences. Yes, he was drugged, but he was rational enough not to kill Nog. Within the drama of the story it worked well, but it didn't do so much for his character, except for proving how lethal he could be.

I have a question for everyone: We've seen what a murderous Garak can do. Who is the most dangerous person on DS9? I'm talking, if you were going to take one person from the station and reprogram them to kill, who would be the deadliest? The easy answer is Worf, but I'm not so sure it's the right one. You could also say Kira, or even Bashir, since he could engineer some kind of toxin that would kill everyone,
 
I liked how much interaction there was with the non-main characters... I was gutted when they all died. :(
I thought that this episode was really different, very dark, but still very good in it's own right.

As for your question, I would actually say either Garak or Odo. Potentially. Garak because he's incredibly clever and a capable assassin- we saw what he could do in Empok Nor, and Odo because of (when he has them) his shapshifting powers. Worf would follow, but then Sisko and Kira can also be pretty dangerous when they're angry... not to mention GM Bashir. Yes, there are plenty of potential psycos. :lol:
 
I forgot all about Bashir being genetically modified. Yeah, he might be a lot more dangerous than you think.

Another question: four of the crewmen under O'Brien's command die, and he has to relive a part of his life that he'd rather put behind him. Is this a "torture O'Brien" episode? Or did we already hit the quota for this season?
 
Quick turnaround for...

"Empok Nor"

It's another great episode. There's a very Alien feel to it, which works well, and Jay Chattaway's score really made the atmosphere that much more suspenseful. It seems that whenever I notice that the music is really good, Jay Chattaway's written it. Is it because he's that much better a composer than the others, or do they just give him the episodes with less dialog, where you hear the music better?

I think Chattaway really stands out on this particular episode as he was a veteran of some early 80's horror and thriller movie scores. I also tend to think during this era (Late DS9 thru Enterprise) Chattaway composed some of the more memorable action cues. I hope some DS9 music gets released soon! Particularily from Chattaway and David Bell.
 
"Soldiers" and "Children" are two of my favorite episodes. I think it's because they are such great character episodes. Though, I think Soldiers of the Empire marks the point where Jadzia officially loses any character development of her own and is destined to just be Worf's girlfriend.

Oh, and I love that line about the carpet! I think it makes life on the station seem so much more real. Hey, even in the 24th century someone has to clean up the messes.

My only fan nitpick about Children of Time... since Worf and Jadzia married, shouldn't Yedrin her other descendents looks just as much Klingon as Trill? And vice versa, shouldn't the "Sons of Mogh" have spots along with their (albeit very slight) ridges and dark skin?
 
Grrr... you're going to fast Shatnertage, now I have to play catch-up. :p

Children of Time
- Another damn fine episode.

I'm glad they finally started doing something with Odo and Kira. But then, I big of fan those two together (I guess that makes me an Odo/Kira shipper).

But on top of that, it's a really good story with a lot of excellent acting. Worf's pride at his descendents and O'Brien's reluctance are just the most obvious.

The only problem I have with it is the scene where they help harvest the fields. Gee, didn't see where that was going to end up, did anybody? ;) That's right guys, plow that nice big field of guilt.
 
Blaze of Glory - Another good one.

However, IMO, Eddington's character really doesn't sit well with me here. I agree that he never seemed like the type who would be the big leader of the Maquis; that he was more of a disgruntled Starfleet officer who joined up for the adventure.

On top of that, all his bitching and moaning about replicated food is just ridiculous, AFAIC. Aside from the fact that I just don't see how it could possibly taste any different - how the hell did this guy manage to lead a revolution as its military leader and somehow find the time to run his farm, growing his food with his own two hands? I don't think he would have had the time to do both, since they're both very time-consuming projects. I mean, hell, when George Washington led the American Revolution, he wasn't actually out plowing the fields at Mt. Vernon.

But I think I missed something. When were all the Maquis wiped out? Did I miss an episode, or did I just forget about that? The latter is definitely possible. I remember the VOY episode when Torres was depressed after hearing about the Maquis being destroyed, but I don't remember it happening on DS9.

No, you didn't miss anything. The destruction of the Maquis at the hands of the Dominion occurred off-screen. We never saw it and this is the first time we learn about it. It would later be referenced on that VOY episode.
 
Finally, Empok Nor - a very, very good one.

It definitely works very well as a thriller. The music is just about perfect. And, Andrew Robinson again shows us just what an amazing actor he is.

I love Garak in this episode. It really shows just what he is capable of and makes you glad that he's on the side of the good guys most of the time.

Robinson himself, however, didn't care much for his performance here, sadly. Mostly, that's because he doesn't like playing psychotic killers, as that's how his career started (playing the Scorpio killer in Dirty Harry) and he fears it will typecast him. But, despite that, he really nails it here.
 
Another question: four of the crewmen under O'Brien's command die, and he has to relive a part of his life that he'd rather put behind him. Is this a "torture O'Brien" episode? Or did we already hit the quota for this season?
Well, it wasn't focusing on torturing O'Brian, but you could easily look at it that way.
I can't remember where all the episodes are in each season- it's been a while since I last watched it all, but there are definitely a few more "O'Brian must suffer" episodes before the end of the series.
 
Indeed, the most horrendous torture O'Brien episode is coming up soon, the one where he...

...tears his pants.
 
Now I get to see a couple of...

"Soldiers of the Empire"

I really liked this episode. Martok gets to do some interesting stuff, with a lot more complexity than we usually see from Klingons. It's a great episode for Worf, too, and we're actually building on the stuff that happened back when they were in prison...
Martok and Worf had a great storyline. Very good ep.
 
It's good to see a character go out in a...

"Blaze of Glory"

Another great episode--we're really on a roll. Up until now, I'd had DS9 below Voyager in terms of overall quality, but I don't recall Voyager having a sustained run like this one. Subtract the two Ferengi episodes, and we haven't had a real clunker (by my reckoning, anyway) since "Rapture." For most of its run I had Voyager at about 50/50, with good and bad episodes just about balancing each other out. Even though I think you can make an argument that the acting on Voyager was usually stronger than DS9 (but that's a subject for another thread, and it'll always be subjective anyway), the stories are clearly delivering better on DS9. But as someone who's mostly sitting through the show for the first time, I have to be fair and say that the show hasn't really fired on all cylinders until now for me. The first four seasons are easily 50/50 or worse for me, and that's an awful lot of bad stuff to be overlooking. But I don't think any Trek series has been consistently good. For every "Devil in the Dark," you've always had an "Alternative Factor." For whatever reason, quality control has never been Trek's strong point. And I can live with that, because when it's good, it's very good....
Eddington was such an interesting character. Always glad when they brought him back.
 
I don't totally buy Eddington as a tactical genius who was the leader of the Maquis, though. I get him being a disgruntled Starfleeter who does his part with the Maquis, but I don't see him being in a bigger leadership position than, say, Cal Hudson. Maybe he took over for Hudson as top dog after Hudson was killed? Who knows?

However, IMO, Eddington's character really doesn't sit well with me here. I agree that he never seemed like the type who would be the big leader of the Maquis; that he was more of a disgruntled Starfleet officer who joined up for the adventure.

Eddington was a Starfleet Lt. Commander, it's not like he was an ensign or enlisted crewman, he had a lot of command experience before he even joined the crew of DS9 let alone the Maquis. His Starfleet rank and experience would have pretty much forced a major leadership role and extra responsibilities on to him as soon as he joined the Maquis.

On top of that, all his bitching and moaning about replicated food is just ridiculous, AFAIC. Aside from the fact that I just don't see how it could possibly taste any different - how the hell did this guy manage to lead a revolution as its military leader and somehow find the time to run his farm, growing his food with his own two hands? I don't think he would have had the time to do both, since they're both very time-consuming projects. I mean, hell, when George Washington led the American Revolution, he wasn't actually out plowing the fields at Mt. Vernon.

I always thought of the difference between replicated food and real food was like fast food and home made food. Except replicated food is obviously healthier than fast food. As for the taste it could be like comparing a McDonalds big mac to a hand made barbecued hamburger

My only fan nitpick about Children of Time... since Worf and Jadzia married, shouldn't Yedrin her other descendents looks just as much Klingon as Trill? And vice versa, shouldn't the "Sons of Mogh" have spots along with their (albeit very slight) ridges and dark skin?


It's possible that Worf and Dax had trouble conceiving, and with limited access to 24th medicine, maybe Bashir never found a way for Worf and Dax to have any kids, without using sperm donors or something.
 
I've seen two more episodes, wrapping up season 5, but won't have time today to write about them. Lots of things happening that will hopefully turn out well!

I will say that I thought "In the Cards" was going to suck but I absolutely loved it. Take that, you soulless minions of orthodoxy!
 
I've seen two more episodes, wrapping up season 5, but won't have time today to write about them. Lots of things happening that will hopefully turn out well!

I will say that I thought "In the Cards" was going to suck but I absolutely loved it. Take that, you soulless minions of orthodoxy!

Huzzah!! In the Cards is fantastic. :bolian:
 
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