My biggest problem with this episode is that the emotional theme did not feel authentic to me. We are supposed to believe that Kira is beginning to doubt her own identity? She's been on DS9 for over two years; Bashir would have noticed if her insides were not Bajoran.
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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Biffette--The fact that could actually be in doubt is one of the reasons that in my personal "fanon," Cardassian medical science is in fact more advanced than that of the Federation. Not drastically so, but enough so.
Shatnertage--This is one of my favorite episodes of the series, hands down. And its sequel...oh, man...words cannot describe that one.
I think a big part of what makes this story so great is the chemistry Pressman and Visitor have. You can really believe that they're a father and daughter.
And what's amazing too is that Ghemor still loves Kira even after he finds out the truth. What a big heart he has.
And also--you now know where my user name comes from and who that man is in my normal avatar. (Don't worry...the picture doesn't spoil anything.)
Now I'm curious to know if you thought that as you watched!!
Shatnertage--This is one of my favorite episodes of the series, hands down. And its sequel...oh, man...words cannot describe that one.
BRING TISSUES. I am not kidding. This goes for men too.
I think a big part of what makes this story so great is the chemistry Pressman and Visitor have. You can really believe that they're a father and daughter.
And what's amazing too is that Ghemor still loves Kira even after he finds out the truth. What a big heart he has.
And also--you now know where my user name comes from and who that man is in my normal avatar.
(Don't worry...the picture doesn't spoil anything.)Now I'm curious to know if you thought that as you watched!!
That occurred to me about halfway through, yes.
The really unsettling thing that this episode suggests is that, potentially, Ghemor will have more in common with Kira than his own daughter. He clearly didn't want her getting mixed up with the Obsidian Order, but went along with her wishes. He admitted that Iliana would have given them the information they wanted. So it's Kira, they former Bajoran resistance leader, who he has a deeper kinship with at this point.
Of course, they could come back and say that his daughter really was so inspired by her father that she's been working for the dissidents the whole time. One of the good things about the episode is that it ends pretty ambiguously.
The really unsettling thing that this episode suggests is that, potentially, Ghemor will have more in common with Kira than his own daughter. He clearly didn't want her getting mixed up with the Obsidian Order, but went along with her wishes. He admitted that Iliana would have given them the information they wanted. So it's Kira, they former Bajoran resistance leader, who he has a deeper kinship with at this point.
Of course, they could come back and say that his daughter really was so inspired by her father that she's been working for the dissidents the whole time. One of the good things about the episode is that it ends pretty ambiguously.
"Second Skin" was an episode I gave a near-perfect score to during my own, ill-fated review series. And for good reason. The acting and characterization is utterly intense. This is DS9 doing what DS9 does best -- giving its strong cast something hearty to chew on. It's also the episode I decided Nana Visitor is at very least in my top five as far as franchise regulars go.
Some technical problems do bog it down a bit but I'm just not a technical enough kind of Trek enthusiast to think about them for long. This episode had it all as far as I'm concerned -- Kira in the spotlight (and not let down by a less-than-stellar script), a remarkably intriguing guest character, Garak doing fun things and a sense of real pride on the production side of things.
One of my top four for the third season, personally!
Some technical problems do bog it down a bit but I'm just not a technical enough kind of Trek enthusiast to think about them for long. This episode had it all as far as I'm concerned -- Kira in the spotlight (and not let down by a less-than-stellar script), a remarkably intriguing guest character, Garak doing fun things and a sense of real pride on the production side of things.
One of my top four for the third season, personally!
Indeed. Their acting is in top form here. The scene where Kira breaks down and smashes the mirror because she hates her Cardassian skin is unbelievably good.
This episode also has some great comedic bits as well. Like this...
Cracks me up every time.
And of course, Garak continues to shine - even when he ruthlessly kills Entek and then immediately jokes about it while Kira and Odo look astonished.
Ohhh, yeah, that was definitely impressive. (Maybe driven by Visitor's real-life hatred of that makeup?) And then poor Tekeny, trying to figure out what to do for her even though watching a woman who looks like his daughter act in such a self-hating way had to be like a knife in his gut...but deciding he had to help no matter who or what she was.
To me, Deep Space Nine had the best acting of any Star trek series, period! The guest stars they got for the series usually were brilliant. "Second Skin" is a perfect example of that. Nana Visitor and Lawrence Pressman were absolutly amazing! One of the finest acting jobs also by a guest star was in Season One, the episode was "Duet". Harris Yulin as Marritza, did such an amazing job. My wife and I are still so blown away by Yulin's performance that we are speechless every time. He id an amazing job. To me that is the beauty of Deep Space Nine, whatever actors were brough in were usually amazing.
^ I'd say in general Trek got some great guest stars. James Sloyan as Jarok, Tony Todd as Kurn, and Jean Simmons as Satie jump out at me from my TNG memory. I agree that from what I've seen of DS9 so far, there are some great dramatic roles for the guest stars that really let them shine. "Duet" is one of those episodes that's also still fresh in my mind.
Didn't get to watch anything last night, but hopefully tonight things will be a little more settled.
ETA: Looking at Jeff's post again, I've got to repeat what I said before. From a plot and plausibility standpoint, this episode should be a complete trainwreck. But it's the characterization and the acting that make it a great episode. I guess I'm also on the less-technical side of fans, in that I'm willing to let them handwave a lot of stuff away as long as they deliver something worth my time.
Didn't get to watch anything last night, but hopefully tonight things will be a little more settled.
ETA: Looking at Jeff's post again, I've got to repeat what I said before. From a plot and plausibility standpoint, this episode should be a complete trainwreck. But it's the characterization and the acting that make it a great episode. I guess I'm also on the less-technical side of fans, in that I'm willing to let them handwave a lot of stuff away as long as they deliver something worth my time.
Gotta concur with Shatnertage; the majority of Trek has had some real show-stealing guest stars. DS9 takes the lead for me, especially because of its ever-growing recurring cast. So if we're counting them then it's a no-brainer.
But man, did the other four shows have some memorable roles as well. Especially TNG and VOY as far as I'm concerned. Just watched VOY's "Jetrel" again last week and James Sloyan was great there.
...
I just realized he's the same strong actor who did Jarok (TNG) and Mora Pol (DS9). Huh. A binding force of glory.
But man, did the other four shows have some memorable roles as well. Especially TNG and VOY as far as I'm concerned. Just watched VOY's "Jetrel" again last week and James Sloyan was great there.
...
I just realized he's the same strong actor who did Jarok (TNG) and Mora Pol (DS9). Huh. A binding force of glory.
^ He also used to do voiceovers for Lexus commercials, which led me once, when a Lexus cut me off, to yell (inside my car), "Take it easy there, Admiral Jarok!"
Excellent.
Sometimes, bad writing can make viewers feel like...
"The Abandoned"
About midway through the first act, when they were explaining how the Jem'Hadar baby was maturing faster than anything anyone had ever seen, I turned to my wife and said, "This is an awful episode. Just awful." Then they passed the ball to Rene Auberjonois, and he actually redeemed it into something watchable. Amazing.
As a parent, one of the Trek tropes I dislike the most is Instant Progeny Syndrome, where a crewmember is suddenly pregnant/given custody of a child, which develops at a prodigious rate, then dies or leaves at forty minutes after being born. All the while we're supposed to believe there's a profound love and connection between the "parent" and offspring, even though they don't know each other long enough to go through a diaper change.
Some offenders: the episode where Troi gets pregnant ("The Child?"), the one where Data makes Lal, and, after this one, "Drone" and maybe even "Unexpected," though pregnant Trip's nesting instincts are at least kind of accurate. There might be more that I'm blanking on now, because the whole concept feels like a real cliche.
So as far as I'm concerned the episode's a non-starter. We do get to learn some things about the Jem'Hadar, like the fact that they're drug addicts who are conditioned to revere the Founders and fight.
Also, noticing that Avery Brooks directed this episode, I was very conscious of what bugs me about his performance. He just seems off in his line deliveries. For example: when telling Dax something like, "I haven't felt this way since Jake was in diapers," he goes for emphatic and demonstrative instead of wistful and introspective. And he does a lot of inappropriate smiling, particularly when he's trying to reassure Jake before the big dinner. Since he's directing himself here, I've got to think this is really his conception of the character, and he just comes across as cold and lacking in empathy--mostly because of the weird smiling.
Speaking of weird smiles, Odo's smile is genuine nightmare fuel.
But that's ironic, because Rene Auberjonois absolutely saves this episode. His scene with Kira in his quarters is a great one, and his care for the Jem'Hadar kid is actually believable.
"The Abandoned"
About midway through the first act, when they were explaining how the Jem'Hadar baby was maturing faster than anything anyone had ever seen, I turned to my wife and said, "This is an awful episode. Just awful." Then they passed the ball to Rene Auberjonois, and he actually redeemed it into something watchable. Amazing.
As a parent, one of the Trek tropes I dislike the most is Instant Progeny Syndrome, where a crewmember is suddenly pregnant/given custody of a child, which develops at a prodigious rate, then dies or leaves at forty minutes after being born. All the while we're supposed to believe there's a profound love and connection between the "parent" and offspring, even though they don't know each other long enough to go through a diaper change.
Some offenders: the episode where Troi gets pregnant ("The Child?"), the one where Data makes Lal, and, after this one, "Drone" and maybe even "Unexpected," though pregnant Trip's nesting instincts are at least kind of accurate. There might be more that I'm blanking on now, because the whole concept feels like a real cliche.
So as far as I'm concerned the episode's a non-starter. We do get to learn some things about the Jem'Hadar, like the fact that they're drug addicts who are conditioned to revere the Founders and fight.
Also, noticing that Avery Brooks directed this episode, I was very conscious of what bugs me about his performance. He just seems off in his line deliveries. For example: when telling Dax something like, "I haven't felt this way since Jake was in diapers," he goes for emphatic and demonstrative instead of wistful and introspective. And he does a lot of inappropriate smiling, particularly when he's trying to reassure Jake before the big dinner. Since he's directing himself here, I've got to think this is really his conception of the character, and he just comes across as cold and lacking in empathy--mostly because of the weird smiling.
Speaking of weird smiles, Odo's smile is genuine nightmare fuel.
But that's ironic, because Rene Auberjonois absolutely saves this episode. His scene with Kira in his quarters is a great one, and his care for the Jem'Hadar kid is actually believable.
I hate-hate-hate that trope. There's only one episode in all of fiction I've ever gotten over that loathing for and given a passing grade. Guess what? It's this one!
And it is so very much because of Odo. Like you said, Auberjonois saves the heck outta "The Abandoned". His performance rises to the occasion and Odo's disconnect from 'the affairs of solids' makes the trope more bearable. And hey, at least the Jem'Hadar child ended up running off to the Gamma Quadrant instead of dying abruptly as the production staff expects us all to reach for our tissues subconsciously.
As for Brooks... I don't know. I delight in his strangeness.
And it is so very much because of Odo. Like you said, Auberjonois saves the heck outta "The Abandoned". His performance rises to the occasion and Odo's disconnect from 'the affairs of solids' makes the trope more bearable. And hey, at least the Jem'Hadar child ended up running off to the Gamma Quadrant instead of dying abruptly as the production staff expects us all to reach for our tissues subconsciously.
As for Brooks... I don't know. I delight in his strangeness.
The Sisko works in mysterious ways.
As for The Abandoned - I'll agree that it's a mediocre episode saved by good acting and universe building.
As for The Abandoned - I'll agree that it's a mediocre episode saved by good acting and universe building.
Once you're done with the third season, Shatnertage, would you do me a favor and let us know whether you prefer the second or third overall? There's been some argument over the years as to which is better. Both have what I'd consider a stretch of mostly-mediocre outings as well as a few real winners.
Many DS9 fans feel like the show didn't get more consistent (and engaging) until the fourth season. I agree with that assessment for the most part but there are still a few classics in the early years.
Many DS9 fans feel like the show didn't get more consistent (and engaging) until the fourth season. I agree with that assessment for the most part but there are still a few classics in the early years.
I would agree that the consistency is still about on par with Season Two. But I definitely find this season more engaging - if for nothing else than that the Dominion Arc has now officially begun.
A very understandable deduction. I actually prefer the second season very slightly, though. Despite only foreshadowing of the Dominion's entry into the series there are just a couple more individual episodes I consider knockouts.
I love the Bajor trilogy, even if its conclusion isn't all that terrific. I love O'Brien in "Whispers" and "Tribunal". I love Bashir and Garak in "The Wire". I love "The Maquis" two-parter, especially for Sisko and Dukat. And I'm sure I'm missing a couple. Oh, "The Alternate" might not be stellar but Odo's stuff with his old mentor is very cool.
As for the third season... well, there are several great episodes here too but I can't really get into 'em yet. I will say that "The Search, Part I" and especially "Second Skin" are two of my top eight or nine from the year.
I love the Bajor trilogy, even if its conclusion isn't all that terrific. I love O'Brien in "Whispers" and "Tribunal". I love Bashir and Garak in "The Wire". I love "The Maquis" two-parter, especially for Sisko and Dukat. And I'm sure I'm missing a couple. Oh, "The Alternate" might not be stellar but Odo's stuff with his old mentor is very cool.
As for the third season... well, there are several great episodes here too but I can't really get into 'em yet. I will say that "The Search, Part I" and especially "Second Skin" are two of my top eight or nine from the year.
Oh, and "The House of Quark" is cool.
I slightly prefer season 2, there was a greater political element to that year what with the goings on on Bajor, Cardassia and the Maquis. The introduction of the Dominion is a big deal, but not much actually happens with them for most of season 3. But once something does happen later in the season, it's pretty epic.
See, I kind of like The Abandoned, because I see it as a sort of gay-acceptance episode. Child is born with genetic traits considered unacceptable by current social norms. Odo becomes emotionally invested and thinks he can change or control the child's natural urges, despite Kira's and everybody else's insistance that this is not a choice, it is a genetic predisposition. In the end, after much heartache Odo realizes that just because he dislikes these genetic traits doesn't mean they can or should be changed, and takes the child to an area with not only others like him but also where his genetic traits are considered socially acceptable.
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