Shatner says he should never have directed Trek V in new book

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Khan 2.0, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was a massive blockbuster summer.

    Last Crusade (certainly not weaker than Temple of Doom BTW)
    Ghostbusters 2
    Karate Kid 3
    Dead Poet's Society
    Lethal Weapon 2
    Star Trek V
    Honey I Shrunk the Kids

    And the MASSIVE blockbuster, Batman


    While I think word-of-mouth and critical reviews certainly contributed, absolutely don't agree that "box office competition is just an excuse" either. TFF had considerable competition that summer.

    Some consider summer of 1989 to be one of the best movie seasons ever.

    https://nypost.com/2014/07/07/was-1989-the-best-summer-for-movies-ever/
     
  2. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    Again, compared to 1979, 1982, 1984, and 1986 your assertion regarding competition becomes ridiculous to the point of absurdity. You really think the competition the other Trek films faced was relatively lighter? LOL! Star Trek VI finished 1991 in the number 15 spot making The Final Frontier (#25) the only TOS film NOT to end the year in the Top 20. It flopped because it was, all things considered, a bad film. So bad that those who had seen it once did not, in significant numbers, either see it again or recommend it to others. They moved on from it quickly because it was awful. So awful it experienced a nearly 60% drop off in business between it's first and second weekend of release. So no matter how you slice the pie, Star Trek V's awfulness is completely supported by the objective data.

    As for the NY POST article, well, many years have had the same articles written about them, however, the general consensus amongst those in the know is 1939 as the best year for movies for it was the year Gone With the Wind, all-time box office champ (adjusted) was released. Also the year of Wizard of Oz and the inspiration for Indy 2, Gunga Din (starring Cary Grant , Victor McLaglen , and Douglas Fairbanks Jr.), and many others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I stopped reading at "LOL"
     
  4. Firebird

    Firebird Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Good lord, I've never heard someone sound so pompous and condescending on this board, and I've been around here more than 13 years.

    Kirok said 1989 was ONE OF the best years for movies, not THE best - and it's not an unknown fact or some special, forbidden knowledge. It's movies, not state secrets.
     
  5. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    Thank goodness because I can tell you, without bias, your arguments got utterly destroyed. So badly in fact I was concerned you'd develop PTSD (complete with night terrors). But since you didn't read past "LOL!" then bullet dodged. :lol:
     
  6. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    "Pompous?" No. "Magically delicious" in both style and substance, okay I'll accept that.

    The intentionally false implication Kirok was attempting to establish was that the films released in 1989 were somehow superior than that of previous years that saw the release of TOS era Star Trek movies and that was the reason why TFF failed. I merely pointed out that 1979 (TMP), 1982 (ST II). 1984 (ST III) and 1986 (ST IV) were ALL years that had formidable box office competition yet the quality of those films had them finish in the top 10. Nothing "pompous" in that.

    Btw, what I said regarding 1939 was factually correct.
     
  7. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    1. I wasn't making an argument. I was simply pointing out a point of view that might have been different than your own. Clearly that was a mistake.

    2. Wow.
     
  8. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    Secondly, you seem to feel if you keep repeating
    Kirok, I don't mean this pompously or snarky in any way, however your point # 1 is literally the definition of what an argument is.

    The problem with your position is simply, by no objective measure or metric (recognized either now or in the past) can you refute the fact that Star Trek V was both a box office/commercial as well as critical failure. There is simply no other reasonable point-of-view on those facts (It's like trying to claim that the "Flat Earth" belief is a reasonable alternative to the scientific fact it is an oblate spheroid). Yet you try.

    Subjectively, you can love it like no other. I do not, myself, hate it. Where you run afoul is trying to alter facts to fit your opinion (and we all know what the fourth Doctor said about that in "Face of Evil").
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  9. Roundabout

    Roundabout Commander Red Shirt

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    Did Shatner ever obtain American citizenship?

    Being Canadian would give Shatner a distinction, though.

    Avery Brooks was the first black captain to star in a ST series. Kate Mulgrew was the first female captain to star in a ST series. Oddly enough but perhaps fittingly, I guess Shatner was the first alien captain of a ST series (from an American perspective). :shrug:
     
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  10. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

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    I liked STV fine in the theater. Didn't notice fx probs. Yes, film is visual. Also has stories, characters, music, dialog too.
     
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  11. Jonesy

    Jonesy Commodore Commodore

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    This (points above).

    I've always wondered just what we were denied that was so much better than what was presented in Trek 5 (in terms of the story). Shatner has had many years to set the record straight. An original draft of a screenplay or even an extensive outline could shed some light on what we we've been missing all these years.
     
  12. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    I believe I once read in an old TV Guide profile Shatner stated he was dual citizenship that way he could, as a Canadian, do theater in England's West End if need be. The interview was mid-70s so I don't know if the Canadian citizenship held other benefits.
     
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  13. Maurice

    Maurice Admiral Premium Member

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    I don't think we were "denied" anything. I suspect there never was any "there" there as far as that script went.
     
  14. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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    earth...but when?...spock?
    just offhand (remembering from the pages of Cinefantastique/Gross&Altman Making of Trek Movies book) it was mainly the climax of the film - 'God' was actually revealed to be the devil (not an alien pretending to be God). the end was Kirk vs legions of demons/gargoyles (imagine ILM would've been able to do them convincingly).. then when the devil was shelved It was rockmen...then budget dictated 1 rockman which was filmed..(and when footage was unusable the floaty God head). the transporter was disabled at the end by Scotty accidently beaming up a gargoyle instead of Kirk who he them vaporises with a phaser (not a BOP strike disabling it). Kirk ontop the mountain was to have a phaser in each hand blasting at legions of demons as they closed in before the BOP appears then Kirk fires his opens fire on at that too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  15. Firebird

    Firebird Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've got a second draft from October 1987, and another draft from February 1988. Apart from the ending being further scaled back as the budget tightened, the story is by and large the same.
     
  16. Maurice

    Maurice Admiral Premium Member

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    The God isn't God but the devil is beginning writer "twist" crap: we can't show God so we'll suggest God exists cuz we'll show the devil. Meh.

    There was a germ of a good idea in the early concepts for TFF: the idea of the televangelist who can persuade masses of people to do things. Showing how such a charismatic charlatan can win over converts even in an enlightened future is an interesting notion, but they don't go there. They just make Sybok brainwash people and so this angle becomes a vestigial appendage: useless.
     
  17. Kerock

    Kerock Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I wonder if Sybok and Michael Burnham knew each other.
     
  18. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    I will say this in defense of ST V, I didn't see Sybok as brainwashing folks per se rather he used his Vulcan abilities to provide a therapy that allowed people to unburden themselves of a tremendous, possibly crippling, guilt they harbored and what we saw was the temporary euphoria it produced as a side effect. At least that's how I took it as Sybok never struck me as malevolent just determined.
     
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  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One of the reasons I find Sybok to be one of the more compelling antagonists of the movie franchise.
     
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  20. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    I hate applying the word "antagonist" to Sybok. It is correct of course, but I feel misleading for he was on what would otherwise be characterized as a rather noble quest of mythological proportions. He was no more villainous than King Arthur and his knights or Odysseus trying to make his way home after the siege of Troy.

    I do wish TPTB of current Star Trek productions would expand on interesting side characters rather than trying desperate ways of exploiting old starring ones. I like that they are doing more with Harry Mudd and the original Number One. They should have chosen to focus on Sybok rather than Spock. Leave the Kirk, Spock, Picard's alone. Move forward in expanding what Star Trek is rather than going backwards.
     
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