SF and People of Color

[DarKush]

on BSG, they originally thought Dualla would have a bigger role in the series than she ultimately did. That's just bad luck.

As for 'racial casting', they do try to be as diverse as they can; i.e. the lead male is hispanic Edward James Olmos (don't hispanics now outnumber blacks in the USA or something?....)


either way, YES, people have noticed that; while BSG does try to be "racially diverse" and have not just Europeans, but also prominent hispanics (Adama) and Asians (Grace Park), they don't have many black (African) "prominent" characters. But really, they thought Dualla would be as big as Sharon on the show; that just didn't turn out well.

V,

Why didn't it turn out well? Was it really just bad luck, or maybe if they had taken more of an effort to find a way to write for her, they could.

I think they were trying to move Dualla forward with the marriage to Apollo, but they handled that badly and then just forgot about it. It wasn't bad luck, it was poor writing and lack of effort.

 

[mswood]

Well in fairness, writers/producers often have something that works on paper that doesn't work on screen. Not to mention that they also have to deal with issues of how characters/actors are received by the public.

Not to mention how story lines are received, by said public.

Not that writers don't make judgment errors and make some odd choices for character arcs. But there are times when characters are taken to legitimate places that fans just don't want to see.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I'm afraid Dualla was just played by an uninteresting actress. She was also cast on Reaper, and was notably dull there as well. All the writing in the world can't suddenly invest an actor with whatever it is that give them the ability dominate a scene, but those are the actors that writers want to write for - they make the writers look good.

Here's a better example of an actress who would benefit from a high-profile sf/f role: Dana Davis. Her gig on Heroes didn't amount to much, but in that case I'll blame the writers because she also had a one-episode role on Pushing Daisies, where she was absolutely funny and charming. The difference is that Pushing Daisies is the far better-written show, and those shows are the ones that you can use to truly judge an actor. BSG is well written enough that if an actor doesn't shine, it ain't the writers' fault...

Sure, but don't Canada have a rule that a big percentage of the cast have to be Canadian to get the tax breaks?

I don't know the details but yeah there's some sort of quota. But I think it's flexible and why can't they meet the quota with non-vital roles?

But look at Caprica - of the (I assume based on descriptions so far) key roles of Joseph Adama, Daniel Graystone, Zoe Graytone, Amanda Greystone, and Sister Clarice, not one is Canadian. So the quota isn't some constricting factor. They might be able to futz around with it to avoid having poor or mis-cast actors in key roles, like has happened with Stargate: Atlantis to its great detriment.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the roles will be non-white actors. Of that list, Esai Morales as Joseph Adama is the only one.

 

[mswood]

And as mentioned before, Trek is really the only scifi show(s) that cast in LA. Most of the others are actually produced in Canada. With Canada giving fairly large financial benefits for casting canadians.

While they do also cast in the US for a good portion of the primary cast most guest stars and most extras are all from canada, and generally from Vancouver area. It 's why you often see the same people getting cast on these shows.

And have no idea on the racial makeup of that area in general or the people who act in that area.

As for them on say SG1 casting a full race of one ethnic culture, its probably far, far easier to cast minor speaking roes and background then to cast primary guest stars.

I remember how they had a devil of a time on DS9 casting for Bashir's mother. They had to use someone with no television or film experience, because they couldn't find anyone.

 

[mswood]

I'm afraid Dualla was just played by an uninteresting actress. She was also cast on Reaper, and was notably dull there as well. All the writing in the world can't suddenly invest an actor with whatever it is that give them the ability dominate a scene, but those are the actors that writers want to write for - they make the writers look good.

Here's a better example of an actress who would benefit from a high-profile sf/f role: Dana Davis. Her gig on Heroes didn't amount to much, but in that case I'll blame the writers because she also had a one-episode role on Pushing Daisies, where she was absolutely funny and charming. The difference is that Pushing Daisies is the far better-written show, and those shows are the ones that you can use to truly judge an actor. BSG is well written enough that if an actor doesn't shine, it ain't the writers' fault...

I didn't want to complain about the actress, but yeah her range does seem fairly limited. And talk about no chemistry with Lee at all. I did think her and Billy (as minor characters) did have some chemistry, but that ended wasn't her or the writers fault.

I would have liked to seen more of Simon, but I wonder if that was a budget or availability issue.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't mind ragging on actors because I rag on writers far more often. In general, for every bad actor there seems to be five or six bad writers making even the good actors look bad.

And I haven't heard a thing about Christopher Judge's "Rage of Angels" series lately

 

[mswood]

I did like the actress who portrayed the priest character, and that was increased through the first season. But I absolutely agree that for a story point impact on Rosyln her death worked really well.

Really this show has featured so many bit roles, but roles with meat to them that just as they should have had gay characters before now, they should have had more minorities in the fleet.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Again, as I probably mentioned in an earlier post, I think it just boils down to someone coming up with a good idea for a black actor/actress...(or, hell, an Asian actor or actress) and going with it.

It's a rarity that you have a strong sci-fi show; a rarity that you have a good sci-fi show that appeals to everyone and lasts beyond the first season, or lasts long enough to not get cancelled when it gets good!

As for BSG, I wondered why they didn't focus on the Simon Cylon (as we rarely see him); with Dualla you don't want to force the character on the audience...although, I do hope we see what happens to the character....

I'm happy to see Esai Morales portray an elder Adama in the upcoming 'Caprica'...

I know 'Day Break' was mentioned; it was a show I wasn't really able to get into...as I thought it was a 'Groundhogs Day' rip-off, but I've heard good things...(So I may try to view it when I have the time).

***

I know the Asian-less/Chinese inspired 'Firefly' was brought up; but there was Gina Torres' character who was pretty kick-ass....

 

[Barbados Slim]

The problem falls back into the writers of these shows. Ira Steven Behr was willing, fifteen years ago, no less, to cast minorities on DS9 and write them as such. They weren't afraid to have Sisko very much about being a black man. Bashir was an Indian-Brit and his parents very much ethnic.

Stargate's writers have never been able to venture out of their two-dimensions. They can't write comfortably for women so having a minority in the main cast who isn't part of a race who's culture they can invent is a scary task. "What do I know about growing up as an Indian? I'm not writing for Sanjay Paraminger. Let's change him to Carson Beckett." We just saw it for Stargate Universe. The original sides called for an Asian female named Tamara Jon. Now it's Tamara Johansen.

As a black nerd who grew up idolizing Picard but in the back of my head wishing they'd give Geordi some gravitas, I'm immensely proud and thankful that blacks got great representation on Deep Space Nine and liked what they did to Tyr on Andromeda (the show tanked when he left). But ever since minorities, not just blacks, get shorted in sci-fi.

I like that Doctor Who gave Rose a black boyfriend and made him an important hero in the Doctor's mythology. Then gave the Doctor a black companion and dealt with the fact that she was a black woman traveling through time.

The argument that people of a certain race can only watch their same race on TV is crap. Writers have to follow Lost's example: Make the character's culture germane to their backstories. Lost is a perfect example of cultural diversity. I know nothing of Iraqis but I know that Sayid's backstories are riveting and immensely tragic. Sun and Jin's backstories are told 95% in Korean. But they're incredibly romantic. I may not understand Korean, but I understand cultural pressures and love-conquers-all storytelling. Lost has a far richer tapestry to draw from by adding minorites.

Other sci-fi shows suffer greatly by making space a white man's burden. The characters and plots become thin. More diversity means more diverse characters which is what all storytelling, books, movies, television, is about. Writers need to say "I'm going to make the leader of this team a Puerto Rican female" and do some research on what it means to grow up Puerto Rican.

The biggest offender of this was Stargate Atlantis. The show was about an international science team. All we saw were white Americans. After the first season, the few minorites from other countries disappeared. A great example of an international science team is the movie Sunshine, which had an awesome Japanese captain, a Maori shrink, Chinese, Scots and Americans.

How can sci-fi reflect tomorrow if it can't reflect today?

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

The problem falls back into the writers of these shows. Ira Steven Behr was willing, fifteen years ago, no less, to cast minorities on DS9 and write them as such. They weren't afraid to have Sisko very much about being a black man. Bashir was an Indian-Brit and his parents very much ethnic.

Stargate's writers have never been able to venture out of their two-dimensions. They can't write comfortably for women so having a minority in the main cast who isn't part of a race who's culture they can invent is a scary task. "What do I know about growing up as an Indian? I'm not writing for Sanjay Paraminger. Let's change him to Carson Beckett." We just saw it for Stargate Universe. The original sides called for an Asian female named Tamara Jon. Now it's Tamara Johansen.

As a black nerd who grew up idolizing Picard but in the back of my head wishing they'd give Geordi some gravitas, I'm immensely proud and thankful that blacks got great representation on Deep Space Nine and liked what they did to Tyr on Andromeda (the show tanked when he left). But ever since minorities, not just blacks, get shorted in sci-fi.

I like that Doctor Who gave Rose a black boyfriend and made him an important hero in the Doctor's mythology. Then gave the Doctor a black companion and dealt with the fact that she was a black woman traveling through time.

The argument that people of a certain race can only watch their same race on TV is crap. Writers have to follow Lost's example: Make the character's culture germane to their backstories. Lost is a perfect example of cultural diversity. I know nothing of Iraqis but I know that Sayid's backstories are riveting and immensely tragic. Sun and Jin's backstories are told 95% in Korean. But they're incredibly romantic. I may not understand Korean, but I understand cultural pressures and love-conquers-all storytelling. Lost has a far richer tapestry to draw from by adding minorites.

Other sci-fi shows suffer greatly by making space a white man's burden. The characters and plots become thin. More diversity means more diverse characters which is what all storytelling, books, movies, television, is about. Writers need to say "I'm going to make the leader of this team a Puerto Rican female" and do some research on what it means to grow up Puerto Rican.

The biggest offender of this was Stargate Atlantis. The show was about an international science team. All we saw were white Americans. After the first season, the few minorites from other countries disappeared. A great example of an international science team is the movie Sunshine, which had an awesome Japanese captain, a Maori shrink, Chinese, Scots and Americans.

How can sci-fi reflect tomorrow if it can't reflect today?

^^

Good post!

 

[grabmygoblin]

I came in here today thinking about starting a discussion as well, I've been getting back into the Star Wars EU, and similarly was bothered by the lack of diversity in the official version.

I don't think there's any overt racism in the decision making in most sci-fi, it's just people casting and writing what they're familiar with... which isn't to say it isn't racist, especially in Stargate where they give a disporportionate amount of alien roles to black actors, but no harm is meant.

I think it heavily reflects the stalling of the civil rights movement since the late 1960's. black characters still pretty much are limited to roles like Uhura's, except instead of speaking Swahili, they speak Anthosian.

The problem falls back into the writers of these shows. Ira Steven Behr was willing, fifteen years ago, no less, to cast minorities on DS9 and write them as such. They weren't afraid to have Sisko very much about being a black man. Bashir was an Indian-Brit and his parents very much ethnic.

Stargate's writers have never been able to venture out of their two-dimensions. They can't write comfortably for women so having a minority in the main cast who isn't part of a race who's culture they can invent is a scary task. "What do I know about growing up as an Indian? I'm not writing for Sanjay Paraminger. Let's change him to Carson Beckett." We just saw it for Stargate Universe. The original sides called for an Asian female named Tamara Jon. Now it's Tamara Johansen.

As a black nerd who grew up idolizing Picard but in the back of my head wishing they'd give Geordi some gravitas, I'm immensely proud and thankful that blacks got great representation on Deep Space Nine and liked what they did to Tyr on Andromeda (the show tanked when he left). But ever since minorities, not just blacks, get shorted in sci-fi.

I like that Doctor Who gave Rose a black boyfriend and made him an important hero in the Doctor's mythology. Then gave the Doctor a black companion and dealt with the fact that she was a black woman traveling through time.

The argument that people of a certain race can only watch their same race on TV is crap. Writers have to follow Lost's example: Make the character's culture germane to their backstories. Lost is a perfect example of cultural diversity. I know nothing of Iraqis but I know that Sayid's backstories are riveting and immensely tragic. Sun and Jin's backstories are told 95% in Korean. But they're incredibly romantic. I may not understand Korean, but I understand cultural pressures and love-conquers-all storytelling. Lost has a far richer tapestry to draw from by adding minorites.

Other sci-fi shows suffer greatly by making space a white man's burden. The characters and plots become thin. More diversity means more diverse characters which is what all storytelling, books, movies, television, is about. Writers need to say "I'm going to make the leader of this team a Puerto Rican female" and do some research on what it means to grow up Puerto Rican.

The biggest offender of this was Stargate Atlantis. The show was about an international science team. All we saw were white Americans. After the first season, the few minorites from other countries disappeared. A great example of an international science team is the movie Sunshine, which had an awesome Japanese captain, a Maori shrink, Chinese, Scots and Americans.

How can sci-fi reflect tomorrow if it can't reflect today?

^^

Good post!

agreed, well stated!

 

[captcalhoun]

FYI Bashir's ethnicity is British-Sudanese, as is Siddig's. his mother was played by a university teacher who was the closest they could get to a female Arab actress of the right age on the West Coast at the time.

which tells you something about the number of Arab women actresses.

 

[Neopeius]

No one's mentioned Dr. Franklin from B5. On the other hand, I *really* liked that while there was great cultural and ethnic diversity on the bridge of B5 (a Jesuit, an Italian, a Russian Jew), they never made a big deal out of it. It wasn't a "see how morally superior our diversity is?" thing like it was on other shows.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

I came in here today thinking about starting a discussion as well, I've been getting back into the Star Wars EU, and similarly was bothered by the lack of diversity in the official version.

I don't think there's any overt racism in the decision making in most sci-fi, it's just people casting and writing what they're familiar with... which isn't to say it isn't racist, especially in Stargate where they give a disporportionate amount of alien roles to black actors, but no harm is meant.

I think if a number questioned it, or if it was brought out in the open there would be something done. If no one says anything...nothing changes.

I think it heavily reflects the stalling of the civil rights movement since the late 1960's. black characters still pretty much are limited to roles like Uhura's, except instead of speaking Swahili, they speak Anthosian.

Or Klingon... (Or you don't get to speak much at all, if your character is Travis Mayweather )...

Or if you're an Asian female, you are present to be saved by the white...or even black hero...or to be the meek, obedient Asian girl. (Hoshi Sato from ENT? Keiko O'Brien until she came to DS9).

I think there needs to be more 'people of color' behind the scenes...

No one's mentioned Dr. Franklin from B5. On the other hand, I *really* liked that while there was great cultural and ethnic diversity on the bridge of B5 (a Jesuit, an Italian, a Russian Jew), they never made a big deal out of it. It wasn't a "see how morally superior our diversity is?" thing like it was on other shows.

I like the diversity of B5 myself...(and boy was their diversity!)

Personally, I think it was more realistic of how our future could possibly look...sans the alien races, of course.

I recall the episode where Sheridan is meeting a group of inviduals from various religious backgrounds...and in another, he and D'lenn (sp?) are among a gospel group.

Not too mention, it was cool seeing an Asian sista command a starship--I forget the name--although, I think she went down with her ship, so her time onscreen was brief.

I think I slammed Grace Park in an earlier post, but I think (especially after watching the BSG webisodes) her character is really complex...and Park does a good job with the character. I look forward to see if they continue that complexity until the end.

 

[cylkoth]

No one's mentioned Dr. Franklin from B5. On the other hand, I *really* liked that while there was great cultural and ethnic diversity on the bridge of B5 (a Jesuit, an Italian, a Russian Jew), they never made a big deal out of it. It wasn't a "see how morally superior our diversity is?" thing like it was on other shows.

Add Dr Sarah Chambers played by Marjean Holden from Crusade to the list...though of all the characters in the show, she got the least amount of development/screentime. And how could we forget Daniel Day Kim?

 

[Uncle Tobias]

Stargate's writers have never been able to venture out of their two-dimensions. They can't write comfortably for women so having a minority in the main cast who isn't part of a race who's culture they can invent is a scary task. "What do I know about growing up as an Indian? I'm not writing for Sanjay Paraminger. Let's change him to Carson Beckett."

That is an interesting point. I always found it kind of odd that the black/african american actors in Stargate almost always played Jaffa. Off hand I can only think of one black military character, a general in the episode where they make a prototype fighter. I may be forgetting but out of ten years, that is pretty odd.

Also, if I'm remembering right there *was* a British-Indian character(at least in looks/accent) in Atlantis, but he got killed off right before Ford. Then Carson got killed off too.

On the subject of BSG though, i don't think they're intentionally excluding black people from thier otherwise (imo) pretty diverse cast, at least I read in the case of Rick Worthy/Simon it was actor availability. But maybe there was someone wary of having a prominent black man alongside a latino lead, who knows.

I'm actually dissapointed Patterson Joseph didn't turn out to be the next Doctor (Who), but then I liked the actor already.

 

[Hermiod]

Also, if I'm remembering right there *was* a British-Indian character(at least in looks/accent) in Atlantis, but he got killed off right before Ford. Then Carson got killed off too.

I assume you mean Dr. Grodin, who was supposed to be British yes. Craig Veroni is, however, actually Canadian but of South African descent.

 

[chrisspringob]

The problem falls back into the writers of these shows. Ira Steven Behr was willing, fifteen years ago, no less, to cast minorities on DS9 and write them as such. They weren't afraid to have Sisko very much about being a black man. Bashir was an Indian-Brit and his parents very much ethnic.

A minor quibble, but Behr wasn't the showrunner at the beginning of the series, when they were casting the main roles. Berman and Piller are responsible for the creative decisions at the beginning of the series. Behr was just one of the writers on staff at that time, and didn't take over as showrunner until Season 3 or 4.

 

[Hermiod]

^And was thus ultimately in charge of casting when Bashir's parents showed up in season five. They could have easily just cast a couple of white people.

Instead they cast a British-Israeli actor as his father (Brian George) and an Arab-American as his mother (Fadwa El Guindi).

 

[chrisspringob]

No one's mentioned Dr. Franklin from B5. On the other hand, I *really* liked that while there was great cultural and ethnic diversity on the bridge of B5 (a Jesuit, an Italian, a Russian Jew), they never made a big deal out of it. It wasn't a "see how morally superior our diversity is?" thing like it was on other shows.

I like the diversity of B5 myself...(and boy was their diversity!)

Personally, I think it was more realistic of how our future could possibly look...sans the alien races, of course.

I love B5, but, uh....no. The show may have been about as diverse as the United States, but not nearly as diverse as the entire world. In fact, the vibe on the show felt very much like "this is the future of *America*" rather than "this is the future of all of humanity" (not that Trek does it any better).

Really, if you were going to do a realistic portrayal of a distant future in which all of the Earth is united under a single banner, whites would be just a small fraction of the total population. I would think that Asians would be the most common racial group, but I'm not counting on a sci-fi show with a mostly Asian cast being commissioned any time soon.