Seven of Nine in my opinion is a terrible character

[STEPhon IT]

I must admit that I found Bujold as Janeway terrible. To this day, I can't even imagine what would have happened if she had became Janeway in the series.

Her performance definitely would not have jibed with the series Berman, & Taylor wanted to broadcast. The premise needed an experienced Captain who can understand the real possibilities the crew may never reach home, but Janeway we got was a fresh new Captain on her 1st command who appeared to be a know it all and didn't appear to have any weaknesses or flaws. The stories told never gave me any sense Janeway or the crew were in peril or make me doubt getting home was not a likelihood. The stakes I felt was never high, not like what I saw with Avery Brooks and his 1st 2 seasons of Deep Space Nine. In order for me to believe stakes I have to believe the lead and Mulgrew was not it.

BTW I've read your stories and your Kes work is wonderful, and nice and honorable gift to one of the freshest characters Star Trek has created in a long time. Sad they haven't done something as great as Kes ever since Voyager.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

The way she speaks almost as if its so forced and she never seems relaxed is annoying.

She has absolutely no personality and on top her over the top speech format where she tries to sound logical and speak as if she's superior and intelligent is also annoying.

The Voyager writers often used this toward comedic effect that usually worked really well, I thought.

The writers of Voyager had fun with the 7of 9 character in ways they didn't/couldn't with Kes.

7 of 9 added more dimension to the show, and was a strength, absolutely!

 

[Terok Nor]

I like that Seven had her own outfits. The Voyager uniforms weren't that great to look at compared to TOS, TNG and later DS9. They didn't even look good on Jadzia Dax. In the few episodes where Seven wore one she looked defeminised. She would have looked great in the tighter fitted S5-7 DS9 uniform. It looked great on Jadzia, Ezri, Kira, Deanna and Beverly.

 

[chris of nine]

Disagree with you wholeheartedly, the difference between Bujold's performance and Mulgrew's was it seemed Bujold understood the premise of the show. It was clear as day the producers was jerking the chain when they made that premise... a premise they had no intention of following through. It was TNG 2.0! Saying Bujold phoned it in is disingenuous because you've seen and used to the immortal Kathryn Janeway, Mulgrew IMO gave the impression she was completely obtuse of her surroundings and acted as if she was in the comfort zone of the Alpha Quadrant.

Mulgrew was a leader who kept a cool head in the most awful of situations and circumstances, exactly what a leader should be, and the first female captain of the franchise. Lady’s in charge, as Lee Adama might say. Bujold didn’t convey that.

What premise was violated? Prime Directive?

 

[Paradise City]

Jeri Ryan took what could have very easily been a pure fanservice character and did a fantastic job of making her three-dimensional.

Yes. And a bit like Spiner with Data, her real personality is a world away of what she portrayed on screen.

 

[chris of nine]

The Voyager writers often used this toward comedic effect that usually worked really well, I thought.

The writers of Voyager had fun with the 7of 9 character in ways they didn't/couldn't with Kes.

7 of 9 added more dimension to the show, and was a strength, absolutely!

TOS established the tradition of mixing serious situations with comedy. TNG continued that with some success at times, at other times falling flat. VOY had some, but Kes wasn’t comedic. Lien had range, and they showed that, especially when she was taken over.

Seven was a shot in the arm. Deadpan delivery of robot comedy. Like an AntiData at times. It worked. And they increased dimensions to the character to include insult comic material. Then, impresssions, even.
Ryan had range, too. But still faithful to the character arc.

Janeway should have been more comedic. Kirk was always, Picard sometimes, and they could have written her with more humor.

Enter Seven.

 

[Lynx]

Her performance definitely would not have jibed with the series Berman, & Taylor wanted to broadcast. The premise needed an experienced Captain who can understand the real possibilities the crew may never reach home, but Janeway we got was a fresh new Captain on her 1st command who appeared to be a know it all and didn't appear to have any weaknesses or flaws. The stories told never gave me any sense Janeway or the crew were in peril or make me doubt getting home was not a likelihood. The stakes I felt was never high, not like what I saw with Avery Brooks and his 1st 2 seasons of Deep Space Nine. In order for me to believe stakes I have to believe the lead and Mulgrew was not it.

BTW I've read your stories and your Kes work is wonderful, and nice and honorable gift to one of the freshest characters Star Trek has created in a long time. Sad they haven't done something as great as Kes ever since Voyager.

I can agree here but that's rather typical for the Berman-Braga way of writing.

They probably took the script from the Bujold try-out and handled it to Mulgrew, with only a few changes. They probably said "The viewers won't notice".

It was the same with many other things, "the silly Ocampa nine-year lifespan", "the Ocampa can only have one child", the amount of photon torpedoes and shuttles and other things whch didn't work or make sense as well. Just like: "Let's try it! It's new and we have never had that in Star Trek before".

When it didn't work, they just plowed on like a bulldozer in a glass shop, saying "Ah, don't worry. The viewers won't notice!"

Berman and Braga did a good job with TNG but they failed miserably in many aspects with Voyager.

Despite the flaws, I acutally like Kathryn Janeway who is definitely one of my favorites.

 

[Jedman67]

Disagree with you wholeheartedly, the difference between Bujold's performance and Mulgrew's was it seemed Bujold understood the premise of the show. It was clear as day the producers was jerking the chain when they made that premise... a premise they had no intention of following through. It was TNG 2.0! Saying Bujold phoned it in is disingenuous because you've seen and used to the immortal Kathryn Janeway, Mulgrew IMO gave the impression she was completely obtuse of her surroundings and acted as if she was in the comfort zone of the Alpha Quadrant.

Well, I mostly liked Janeway when she wasn't going off the deep end or getting drunk on the Prime Directive. She was somewhat shallow and contradictory; but when she was in "proper" Janeway character she sold the show.

I must admit that I found Bujold as Janeway terrible. To this day, I can't even imagine what would have happened if she had became Janeway in the series. She makes the character look very wooden and boring, almost like a robot.

I haven't seen Bujold in any other roles so I can't judge her performance as an actress. She might be great but I wasn't impressed with her as Janeway.

Or maybe Mulgrew's acting is so great in the series that I can't imagine another Janeway.

However, she inspired me to write a text on the Kes Website on the page "Voyager's mysteries-and how to solve them" which I will quote here:


Nicole Janeway

Nicole Janeway, who can be found on some Youtube clips instead of Kathryn Janeway is actually Kathryn Janeway's aunt. A sister to Kathryn's father Edward Janeway.

Contrary to most members of the Janeway family, Nicole Janeway weren't interested at all in Starfleet and space exploring. She always considered her brother Edward a crazy fool who should have chosen another career instead of Starfleet.

"Man doesn't belong into space", she often said. "It's utter foolishness to travel around in those metal boxes in such dangerous environment".

When Edwards daughter Kathryn decided to join Starfleet, Nicole was furious. "You are a hopeless, reckless fool", she told Edward Janeway. "But worse is that you have raised your daughter to become one hopeless, reckless fool too", she said. And added, "This will end up in a disaster, believe me!"

Nicole Janeway often expressed her compassion for Kathryn's mother Gretchen. "I really feel sorry for her, marrying my stupid brother" but expressed sympathy for Kathryn's sister Phoebe who had chosen to become an artist instead.

When tragedy actually struck and Edward Janeway was killed during an exploring mission, together with Kathryn's fiancée Justin Tighe while Kathryn survived the accident, Nicole Janeway pestered everybody who wanted to listen with comments about "well, what did I say". Finally Phoebe Janeway got tired of hearing her aunt's complaints, lost her temper and told Nicole Janeway where to go.

When Voyager dissapeared in the Badlands, Nicole Janeway continued to tell everyone (except Gretchen and Phoebe Janeway who had broken all contacts with her) that Kathryn only had herself to blame for being as foolish as her father. Due to her not too diplomatic comments about certain family members, Nicole Janeway became rather isolated from the rest of the family. She continued to live on her ostrich farm in Colorado while keeping her negative opinion about space exploring.

The scene with Nicole Janeway as captain on Voyager was actually a nighmare Kathryn Janeway had two nights after Voyager left Ocampa, heading for the distant home. Only in a nightmare could Kathryn Janeway imagine her aunt as the captain on her ship.

That's terrible! Well done!!

 

[chris of nine]

I’m at the library right now picking up Season One, specifically to rewatch Bujold. But I’m sure that my opinion will be unchanged.

I don’t even enjoy looking at her.

But it makes me wonder if there were other miscasts.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Mulgrew was a leader who kept a cool head in the most awful of situations and circumstances, exactly what a leader should be, and the first female captain of the franchise. Lady’s in charge, as Lee Adama might say. Bujold didn’t convey that.

What premise was violated? Prime Directive?

The premise of the show was dealing with a Starfleet ship, a small one, would be lost in space and would not have the conventions or comfort of being in Federation space like TNG or DS9 seasons 4 - 7, also a good portion of the crew would be renegades including the 1st officer, which will create conflict within the crew. They would have to make friends and they won't be fighting week to week because they would have to conserve resources, holodeck usage, and figure out new ways of surviving in a strange new world. There are a lot ways for a leader to convey strength, and being obtuse of the reality of the situation is not one of them. Battling larger ships every week in an area of space where there's no reinforcements only makes sense from the ignorance by the writing staff. Also, I thought Chakotay's character was only conceived just to make Mulgrew's character look better, the writing positioned her to be always right and doesn't give a so-called "Captain in her new command" any room for growth.

A new Captain on her first command put in such an unfortunately situation is a fascinating concept because all of the Star Trek protocols I and the character knew would be thrown out of the window... or an airlock. Along with a renegade crew and personnel, and yes I know the producers conveniently made Starfleet personnel disproportionate to give Mulgrew the upperhand, the Captain would be forced to not just go guns blazing in a particular situation but everything we and the Captain knows would be turned upside down. Every week her decisions made would and could alter their chances of getting home, so this concept would not be the picnic I saw with the perfect Captain Kathryn Janeway. Bujold conveyed a Captain who fully realized the shit storm she's in, something Avery Brooks conveyed brilliantly in the 1st 2 seasons of DS9.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I can agree here but that's rather typical for the Berman-Braga way of writing.

They probably took the script from the Bujold try-out and handled it to Mulgrew, with only a few changes. They probably said "The viewers won't notice".

It was the same with many other things, "the silly Ocampa nine-year lifespan", "the Ocampa can only have one child", the amount of photon torpedoes and shuttles and other things whch didn't work or make sense as well. Just like: "Let's try it! It's new and we have never had that in Star Trek before".

When it didn't work, they just plowed on like a bulldozer in a glass shop, saying "Ah, don't worry. The viewers won't notice!"

Berman and Braga did a good job with TNG but they failed miserably in many aspects with Voyager.

Despite the flaws, I acutally like Kathryn Janeway who is definitely one of my favorites.

Well, Jeri Taylor was the mastermind to these ideas, and I didn't think the lifespan idea was silly at all. I would've preferred the brainstorming wasn't so linear to Earth time but something the Great Janeway and the Doctor didn't fully understand. I was hoping the Ocampa lifespan was some form of reincarnation, where the nine years was a lifespan in multiples of 9 to the 9th power. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, an alien who has the secrets of life beyond the universe. The God particle is real folks!!! IMO there was sooooooooooooooooo much I could've done with the character of Kes because I thought she was so unique, but as the series went along Jeri Taylor was invested in making Janeway the greatest Captain ever, instead of a Captain who should be stumbling in the beginning and by season 4 she's the best Starfleet has ever had because no Captain had ever had to start off her career in this fashion, going to strange new worlds and seeking out new life as the "Starfleet handbook" is thrown out of the window! Mulgrew's Janeway does not jibe with the concept.

 

[Lynx]

Well, Jeri Taylor was the mastermind to these ideas, and I didn't think the lifespan idea was silly at all. I would've preferred the brainstorming wasn't so linear to Earth time but something the Great Janeway and the Doctor didn't fully understand. I was hoping the Ocampa lifespan was some form of reincarnation, where the nine years was a lifespan in multiples of 9 to the 9th power. Like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, an alien who has the secrets of life beyond the universe. The God particle is real folks!!! IMO there was sooooooooooooooooo much I could've done with the character of Kes because I thought she was so unique, but as the series went along Jeri Taylor was invested in making Janeway the greatest Captain ever, instead of a Captain who should be stumbling in the beginning and by season 4 she's the best Starfleet has ever had because no Captain had ever had to start off her career in this fashion, going to strange new worlds and seeking out new life as the "Starfleet handbook" is thrown out of the window! Mulgrew's Janeway does not jibe with the concept.

I have to correct you in what you wrote in an earlier post. Voyager wasn't Janeway's first command. According to Memory Beta, her first command was at the ship Billings in 2363. Two years later, in 2365, she was the Captain of the Bonestell which was her first command with Tuvok as security officer, this can be found in the book "Pathways" written by Jeri Taylor. So she did have some command experience when she became Captain on Voyager.

As for Kes, well as you probably have read in many of my posts, I have no interest of any mumbo-jumbo like that silly lifespan or energy being rubbish. She would have been at her best with some mental abilities like she showed up in "Persistence Of Vision" and "Cold Fire" but nothing more. What made Kes interesting was her personality which could have made her an excellent counselor, a good doctor or a good officer among the senior staff.

There are some things that could have been made better. Torres became tame too quickly. I would have seen that change take place during 3-4 episodes and not only during the second episode of the show. The same with the Kes-Neelix relationship which should have broken up during 2-3 episodes in season 2 after "Cold Fire" but Berman and his staff were terrible when it came to write about relationships (I'm lousy at that too and therefore I try to stay away from such stories but if I had to, I would do it better than Bermans gang). They couldn't write about realistic relationships in TNG either.

I would also have liked to see some of the problems with the Maquis and the Starfllet crewmembers being solved during the 2-3 first episodes, to get a realistic picture of that development. Why not have a scene with Chakotay and Parsi in the mess hall where Tom could have explained that he never betrayed Chakotay's crew, that he was actually leading a Federation ship away from Chakotay's ship when he was caught (as it is described in "Pathways"). I really like season 1 but some events were too rushed in the first episides, just to get the ship and crew as perfect as possible as soon as possible.

But what ever misgivings I have with Voyager, especially the later seasons and some events there, I'm happy that it didn't turn out like Stargate Universe which looked like a mirror universe version of Voyager with a bickering crew, obnoxious characters and as exiting as watching paint dry.

 

[Jedman67]

Lynx, those are good points but novels aren't considered canon. I'm pretty sure though that canonically Voyager was supposed to be her first long term deployment, or real "independent" command but certainly not her first ship.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Can't add much to this discussion other than to defend Enterprise's honor. It was cancelled after 4 seasons, not 3.

Oh, and since a catsuited T'Pol could not rescue Enterprise, I don't think it's fair to think merely the catsuit on Seven saved Voyager.

I preface my next comment by being transparent. I loved Kes. Not as much as Lynx does (who could?) . Kes was a fav of mine, not because of her relationship with Neelix but rather because of her relationships with Janeway and the EMH. When she left Voyager, I was heartbroken. Not as heartbroken as Janeway, but you get the idea.

But I liked Seven from the get go. She wasn't just another Data, Vulcan or Vulcan Haflin, she was unique to the series and the franchise. And not to be too disagreeable, but in season 4 she wasn't the star of "all Seven, all the time". There were plenty of shows about her, but plenty about Chakotay too that year. The one who got shorted was B'Elanna, and that wasn't the writer's fault as much as it was Roxann Dawson's husband's fault. (She was pregnant and went out on maternity leave)

Later years found Seven's role too outsized for even my tastes, yet I have the same complaint about Data's role in the series and the movies.

As for Jeri's acting, I have no complaints in that department.

Would I have preferred her in a real uniform? Yes. But somehow, deep inside I suspect that had she more fully been assimilated into Voyagers collective, there would be a thread decrying Seven,like the Maquis before her, were so easily co-opted by the Voyager crew and "wasn't that a shame."

Loved Kes.

Loved Seven.

Adored B'Elanna.

Still worship Janeway.

Any wonder why this show is my favorite Trek series?

Happy New Year !

 

[chris of nine]

Never thought about this before. Geez, it’s the Trek Women that drive me to VOY and that didn’t happen with TNG.

Tasha Yar, Troi, Crusher.....just didn’t move me like the VOY women.
Ro Laren, yes. I can watch Michelle Forbes all day, like Razor, BSG.

But all the VOY women characters are so watchable.

Gotta give Jeri Taylor some credit for that.

 

[Relayer1]

I'd probably have taken Bujold over Mulgrew, but my intense dislike of Mulgrew is well known.

I've never failed to engage with a Trek cast the way I did with the Voyager crew. Janeway obviously, but I found Tuvok hard to watch too. Chakotay was wasted, Kes uninteresting, Neelix awful and only marginally redeemed by how good Ethan Phillips was and Tom, B'Alanna and Harry were so-so. Seven too, which left me only really liking the doctor.

The only other Trek character that I disliked and didn't eventually warm to was Pulaski.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I didn't like Crusher that much in season 1 because it seemed like TPTB were just setting her to be a romantic prize for Picard. I enjoyed her much more season 3 onward because she existed for more than romance. In fact, when it seemed they were getting friendly in season 6 &7, that was okay because I felt like it was a real partnership of equals by then.

As for Pulaski... I liked her because she was so contrary, although it seemed TPTB were trying too hard in the beginning to make her like McCoy (transporter phobia)

It was/Is/always will be the "Star Trek women" that caught my attention in Voyager, and let's not forget the BORG Queen (s)

(I say queens since we had both Susanna Thompson and Alice Krieg.)

 

[Terok Nor]

Never thought about this before. Geez, it’s the Trek Women that drive me to VOY and that didn’t happen with TNG.

Tasha Yar, Troi, Crusher.....just didn’t move me like the VOY women.
Ro Laren, yes. I can watch Michelle Forbes all day, like Razor, BSG.

But all the VOY women characters are so watchable.

Gotta give Jeri Taylor some credit for that.

Don't forget our beloved villainess Seska!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Mushroom soup, anyone?



I even like the "subunit of Ensign Wildman".

 

[chris of nine]

Don't forget our beloved villainess Seska!

I didn’t. Who could? She has fire. Love her.
She’s also in that category of Trek non humans who look better in their ridgehead makeup than without, like Kira.
Naomi Wildman could’ve used better ridges. Those bumps just look like weird acne.
Maybe they grow?