Seven of Nine and FIRST CONTACT

[Tiberius]

i wonder how the borg and 7 learned about cochrane's adventure? the borg cube was destroyed by the fleet, and the sphere by the enterprise-e before the phoenix's flight. the frozen survivors of the sphere discovered in enterprise-nx times were disabled before cochrane's flight, the queen and other borg who beamed to the enterprise-e as well as assimilated crewmembers, and the antenna they installed on the deflector all destroyed before that flight. humans had no knowledge of the borg before the enterprise-d encountered them, so the borg couldn't assimilate the knowledge from humans prior to q-who like the crew of the raven.

The frozen survivors of the wreckage of the sphere would have been able to repair themselves with their nanoprobes before the final confrontation in engineering. They would therefore have been aware of everything that happened up until the time when the queen died. The drones in the ice were then overloaded again. When they were picked up in Regeneration, they sent a message to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant, which included an account of everything that happened. That is how Seven knew about it.

Interesting though...

If that information was sent, then the Borg in the 24th century knew that the attempt to stop Cochrane would fail. Why then would they send it, knowing they'd lose all the resources they'd commit to the mission?

Because the mission was not to stop first contact. That would have been icing on the cake, but not the primary mission objective. The main objective was to send knowledge about the future to Borg of the past, which is exactly what happened!

 

[Kai Winn]

They did send that message to the collective in that Enterprise episode.

to tell them what? that they are from the future and their last memory was to be knocked out by the enterprise before they could assimilate earth? that was their objective at the time, not to destroy the phoenix.
what's the big deal about preventing first contact, anyway?
if cochrane hadn't done it, someone else would a year or two later. the actions of a single person don't determine the fate of the universe. the vulcans were buzzing around anyway, would have discovered the other warp signature. with some luck the first contact would have been not the vulcans, but a species that wouldn't have inhibited earth's efforts to explore space for another 100 years. the handsome tellarites perhaps.

 

[exodus]

They did send that message to the collective in that Enterprise episode.

to tell them what? that they are from the future and their last memory was to be knocked out by the enterprise before they could assimilate earth? that was their objective at the time, not to destroy the phoenix.
what's the big deal about preventing first contact, anyway?
if cochrane hadn't done it, someone else would a year or two later. the actions of a single person don't determine the fate of the universe. the vulcans were buzzing around anyway, would have discovered the other warp signature. with some luck the first contact would have been not the vulcans, but a species that wouldn't have inhibited earth's efforts to explore space for another 100 years. the handsome tellarites perhaps.

What?

If they stopped First Contact, there would be no warp capible ships, thus no United Federation of Planets. Making Earth ripe for assimilation just like they showed. So there wouldn't be "someone else a year or two later" because we'd already be Borg. If the Vulcans discovered the warp signature and came looking, they'd be assimilated too.

As far as one person having possaiblity of changing the fate of the universe, what was "All Good Things..." about?

 

[Kai Winn]

well, no. the borg of ent were survivors of the crashed sphere. all borg aboard the enterprise e died irretrievably, dissolved by that green smoke. so, say those ent borg send a message in 2150 or so to borg space informing them that their attempt to assimilate earth failed, and cochran smashed the light barrier (but how would they know what the queen attempted after they were disabled, so this knowledge they carried from the future already).
200 years later, 2350 or so, this message arrives in borg space. 'well, thanks' they will reply, that's old news.
if the time is ripe, an invention is made. america would have build a nuke without oppenheimer as well, there is evidence that adolf had and tried one before the americans, and within a few years the russians, french, british, israelis, etc all had them. one person is insignificant.

 

[Tiberius]

Did you read my post? It explains what the Borg actually sent to the Collective, and it explains why the Collective would launch the mission we saw in First Contact, even though the signal in Regeneration undoubtedly informed them that the mission would not prevent first contact.

 

[exodus]

well, no. the borg of ent were survivors of the crashed sphere. all borg aboard the enterprise e died irretrievably, dissolved by that green smoke. so, say those ent borg send a message in 2150 or so to borg space informing them that their attempt to assimilate earth failed, and cochran smashed the light barrier (but how would they know what the queen attempted after they were disabled, so this knowledge they carried from the future already).
200 years later, 2350 or so, this message arrives in borg space. 'well, thanks' they will reply, that's old news.
if the time is ripe, an invention is made. america would have build a nuke without oppenheimer as well, there is evidence that adolf had and tried one before the americans, and within a few years the russians, french, british, israelis, etc all had them. one person is insignificant.

You just named Oppenheimer & Hitler, those two examples alone shows that one person isn't insignificant.

Once again, the Borg all knew the plot to stop "First Contact" before the Cube & the Sphere left the Delta Q. They knew what their intentions were and what their target was because it was their plan from the start.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they just wanted to go back in time to upgrade themselves, they didn't have to go through Earth's scrimmage line to do it. They could have stayed home, went back 300 years and then trundled off to Earth after upgrading their ancestors and "forcing" them to accept assimilation by the future Borg.

Seriously.

Borg Civil War.

They're not only xenophobes but chronophobes.

UNless they're just going to bend over and supplicate themselves to "more" perfect beings? Which begs the question, what happens if the Borg meet beings who are not future Borg but are "more" perfect, Will they submit to assimilation rather than go about their usual means?

Imagine if Bush jr had travelled back in time with Chenney to the beginning of World War Two and insisted that they were to be put in charge as they saved day, reassuming their future held leadership of America? Using Obama is less funny. Sending him back to an uncivilized American before the emancipation proclamation would raise an even more interesting point, y'know if he had a fully kitted platoon of current day marines to smite any one thinking he's a run away slave, with him as he told George Washington to move to one side because he was planning to found America "better".

It's obvious that the Borg wanted to take Picard with them.

Enterprise just "lucked" onto a temporal wake which shielded them to revision of the time line? And "noticed" the hole in space time the Borg had peered through?

Ridiculous.

The federation fleet held out for hours and hours while Picard sauntered in from the Romulan neutral Zone?

I don't think so.

There was a larger game being played that relied on those people being put in the positions they eventually took.

Things were happening that were too distended for the writers of this movie to fully grasp.

 

[Kai Winn]

Did you read my post? It explains what the Borg actually sent to the Collective, and it explains why the Collective would launch the mission we saw in First Contact, even though the signal in Regeneration undoubtedly informed them that the mission would not prevent first contact.

missed it, sorry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So Tiberious, you're mainting that we're talking about a time loop rather than the construction of several very similar timelines? Which means possibly mabey the Borg from 2369 from the Already borged up earth must have been considering sending back an expedition to 2063 too, either to keep things just the same or make the borging or the earth "better" if they felt that they had to maintain the causal loop?

 

[Hayesimus]

Sorry I stumbled onto this a couple years late but I would like to point out a few things. Firstly, you people are assuming A LOT! First we have to decide if we want to view this as a causality loop or an altered timeline. I prefer the loop. It implies fate had something to do with it. The enterprise was destined to save earth and essentially launch its own history. Now, under those conditions we know only this. 1. Seven knows the Borg were present during those events. 2. Seven knows the name of the warp ship. Seven doesn't say she knows the series of events that transpired there. Just that they were present. 3. The Borg that were on the sphere wreckage were disabled either in the explosion of the Borg sphere or the crash to the planet. The we're not aware of anything after that although perhaps their cranial implants were still receiving telemetry from the local hive mind until the queen's death. 4. They were inadvertently awakened in ENT. They then transmitted a signal to current Borg in the delta quadrant. But the signal was interrupted. 5. The Borg of the delta quadrant receive signal sometime after ENT and sometime prior to TNG season 1 as they have already sent ships to the edge of federation and Romulus space. They were looking for the source of the Borg signal. Once they encountered technologically insignificant colonies and outposts, they turn around and head in the direction of system J-25(something like that) then Q flings the most advanced federation ship into its path, the enterprise D. They then turn around and head back to federation space after analyzing data taken from the enterprise's samples the cut out from the saucer section. So they knew the Borg were present in first contact YES. They may even have known that the Phoenix was what lead to first contact. But the signal that was sent to them may have been cut off before they found out the queen had died and they were unsuccessful. I would figure they didn't know what it all meant until the events had already transpired. Kinda like having a precognitive dream of a car wreck and then getting into the wreck the next morning and you suddenly realize you knew it was going to happen already. Anyways. Yeah. Just my theory.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I make too many paragraphs.

1. Seven knew about the the Borg being at Zephrams first flight, because that was the mission brief the Queen filed as she left Borg Space. or the Borg equivalent. "if we can't take earth, we'll take earth in the past." Or at any extent the transwarp netork would allow real time communication between the Collective and the Cube trying to assimilate Earth.

2. Every Federatrion school child knows the name of that ship.

But the rest is more or less correct.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

i wonder how the borg and 7 learned about cochrane's adventure? the borg cube was destroyed by the fleet, and the sphere by the enterprise-e before the phoenix's flight. the frozen survivors of the sphere discovered in enterprise-nx times were disabled before cochrane's flight, the queen and other borg who beamed to the enterprise-e as well as assimilated crewmembers, and the antenna they installed on the deflector all destroyed before that flight. humans had no knowledge of the borg before the enterprise-d encountered them, so the borg couldn't assimilate the knowledge from humans prior to q-who like the crew of the raven.

This is all the more reason why I gave away my DVD copy of "Star Trek: Fan Collective - Borg" last year to a South Korean friend.

After "I, Borg" I call B.S. to pretty much everything contrived that came afterwards, except for the entertaining Star Trek: First Contact. The whole mythology behind them keeps changing everytime a new episode comes along.

They were mysterious and formidable when you first saw them on screen, but how many more times can you resurrect this unstoppable and relentless juggernaut -- making them incredibly more stronger and appearing invincibly indestructible, only to be defeated so easily by a lone starship?

UPN probably meddled with that to boost ratings; I really don't know what more to say, but they dried the milk out of that one.

 

[Hayesimus]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhh

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhh

Indeed.

 

[Finn]

wasn't Kim referring to ST movie First Contact? Earth is attacked by the Borg and the TNG crew goes back in time to prevent the Borg from preventing first contact with the Vulcans who see the maiden voyage of the Pheonix?

Seven could have been referring to the "movie" (released in 1996), but since the events in the "movie" took place after Voyager was lost (series debuted 1/95), then Kim couldn't know about them. IIRC, that was one of the reasons Kim was so "shocked" at Seven's contention that the Borg were "there".

Kim wouldn't have known even if he never left the Federation. It would have been classified.

 

[exodus]

wasn't Kim referring to ST movie First Contact? Earth is attacked by the Borg and the TNG crew goes back in time to prevent the Borg from preventing first contact with the Vulcans who see the maiden voyage of the Pheonix?

Seven could have been referring to the "movie" (released in 1996), but since the events in the "movie" took place after Voyager was lost (series debuted 1/95), then Kim couldn't know about them. IIRC, that was one of the reasons Kim was so "shocked" at Seven's contention that the Borg were "there".

Kim wouldn't have known even if he never left the Federation. It would have been classified.

What is this, Deadpool?

If Seven knew of "the movie", then she'd be aware that the universe she lived in isn't real and just a story being written. Right?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If the historic Borg received the interplexing beacon message, or sleeping pilgrims then they would have known that Borg from an alternate future had invaded(created/jiggled) their history creating a new present they wouldn't have anything to be concerned about, because they have no responsibility to repeat that othertimelines mistakes which would only fracture they present again as history shifts under an empire of trillions all resonably happy about their...

You know except for 8472 decimating their cilization.

 

[Ian_Burow]

Seven of Nine is aware of the Borg's plan to travel to the past and assimilate Earth because she was still a drone when this incident occurred. From the stardate, the Borg sphere attempts this towards the end of 2373, whereas Seven isn't disconnected from the Collective until early the following year. As a drone, she would be aware of the Collective's plan.

Harry Kim could not possibly know of this plan because Voyager, and he, left the Alpha Quadrant nearly three years before the sphere engaged Earth, and no contact was available to update the Voyager crew about it. Seven of Nine would be the only person on Voyager who would have known about the Borg's presence at First Contact.

As for the message seen in Enterprise... meh. It was a cute attempt at continuity, but I still dislike the appearance of the Borg here. Nevertheless, I believe it was established in dialogue between Phlox, T'Pol, and Captain Archer that the message was a series of pulsar placements, indicating Earth's coordinates. I find it hard to believe that the Borg Collective of the 22nd century would have knowledge of Earth and humanity, as Earth had merely tiptoed into the interstellar pool at that point, and this last minute transmission was the revived drones way of informing the full Collective about Earth. Despite a century of frozen existence, the drones still would attempt to assimilate Enterprise, and seeing that they could not, they would attempt to inform those who could - the full scale collective.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And that Zephram went on about them every time he got drunk.

At least, that's what Archer said.

 

[Ian_Burow]

Ya, you're right. Heck, if my attempt to strap myself on top of a nuke with the intention of flying it off the planet and jumping past light speed was suddenly disrupted by a bunch of Terminators, I'd wanna talk about it when I'm drunk too.