Seven/Chakotay Relationship
- Thread starter Capt_Piett
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I disagree. I think the fact that Voyager got home by a deus ex machina rather than through their own efforts, and that the last episode of the show ever focused on that whole damn "Janeway versus the Borg Queen" catfight nearly to the exclusion of everyone else, are far more damaging to "Endgame," and to the series, than who ended up boinking whom.
Yeah, it does. Especially considering how badly Trek does most of the 'ships they actually do.
I read through the ENT forum during the last couple seasons of the series, and I distinctly remember thinking that some people needed a major perspective check. That was another series with bigger problems than who was doin' it with whom. And as I recall, the mods actually felt the need to put a moratorium on 'shipper talk, and later to limit it, because some shippers were incapable of even being civil to those who preferred a conflicting ship. Does that kind of attitude (on the part of the 'shippers, I hastily add, not the mods) seem right or reasonable to you?
If memory serves, most of the J/C romantic buildup was in Seasons One and Two. And I distinctly recall reading a TV Guide Fall Season issue, pre-Season Three, where one of the producers specifically said that the decision had been made not to pursue J/C.
The last J/Cish bit I recall was back in "Timeless" (Season Five), and nothing had happened between them for so long before that, that that candlelight scene seemed to me to come entirely out of the blue. In fact, I think that particular scene could as easily be interpreted as Janeway seducing Chakotay into agreement -- which is actually how I interpreted it at the time.
Several years after the last tangible hint of J/C romance (and an arguable one, at that!), I don't think changing course constitutes "pull[ing] the rug out from under" anyone.
Yeah, yeah, they did it all just to piss off the J/Cers. Poor persecuted J/Cers.
I think you've got an inflated idea of the importance of J/Cers to TPTB. I honestly don't think they cared that much about the J/Cers one way or the other.Now they're persecuting Seven/anyone-other-than-Chak fans, too? Methinks some fans think they're far more significant in the grand scheme of things than they actually are.
Brennyren
Count me in as another who was confused by the sudden Chakotay/Seven relationship. It seemed rushed and kind of devoid of passion and we didn't really get to see them together as a couple. I mean in "Endgame" in the alternate future they were dead for crying out loud. I did think that the Doctor was more suited for Seven and enjoyed his dismal reaction when Seven tells him that she has become attracted to the Chakotay hologram...I could relate to how the Doctor was reacting, when the woman you have feelings for and hasn't acknowledged them yet becomes suddenly interested in someone else. Its a horrible feeling. I always felt that Harry got shafted in the relationship department. I mean he took a long time to get over the fact that he and Libby were pretty much history. Then his attempts to get the other twin sister to like him failed despite the fact that the other one had a crush on him. Then that alien chick who's name escapes me that Harry was about to leave the ship for? Yep he got jibbed.
I liked the idea of Janeway/Chakotay but it probably would've never happened anyways because of the reasons stated by one of the posters above. Captain Janeway is the CO of the ship and if she had gotten involved with her XO it could've been potentially disasterous for the crew dynamic among other things.
I liked the idea of Janeway/Chakotay but it probably would've never happened anyways because of the reasons stated by one of the posters above. Captain Janeway is the CO of the ship and if she had gotten involved with her XO it could've been potentially disasterous for the crew dynamic among other things.
The logic for a J/C relationship would be that Janeway would not be able to date anyone else but the most senior officer available. It would be unrealistic to expect her to go on for a potentially indefinite period of time without intimate companionship.
The Co/XO could have been potentially good for Janeway and the crew as it would have given her a deeper understanding of Chakotay and his feelings on her actions as well as his interpretation of the crew's mental state. He on the other side of the coin would have been in a good position to understand how to interact with her in a way that could minimize conflict.
If Janeway weren't so alone maybe some of her harsh reactions would have been mitigated by the added mental/physical/emotional stability of a committed and sustained relationship.
I don't see there being anyone else on Voyager that could have fitted the bill for those reasons. You can forget about alien loverboy of the week. None of them could have made a significant difference in Janeway's long term mental satisfaction.
People do tend to act strangely when they are denied mental & emotional comfort over a prolonged duration.
The Co/XO could have been potentially good for Janeway and the crew as it would have given her a deeper understanding of Chakotay and his feelings on her actions as well as his interpretation of the crew's mental state. He on the other side of the coin would have been in a good position to understand how to interact with her in a way that could minimize conflict.
If Janeway weren't so alone maybe some of her harsh reactions would have been mitigated by the added mental/physical/emotional stability of a committed and sustained relationship.
I don't see there being anyone else on Voyager that could have fitted the bill for those reasons. You can forget about alien loverboy of the week. None of them could have made a significant difference in Janeway's long term mental satisfaction.
People do tend to act strangely when they are denied mental & emotional comfort over a prolonged duration.
There is always the holodeck...and I'm surprised no one has brought up everyone's favourite pairing Q/Janeway! I always thought they were good together!
Well, it's a pity the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing then, because there were just enough hints n teases for years afterwards to keep us (J/Cers) interested and keep believing that we'd see J/C happen in or by the finale. They didn't even have the balls to flat out kill J/C on-screen by showing J/C have 'the conversation' did they. That at least would have been honourable. But, no there was always just enough teasing going on here and there to keep us believing, right up until "Endgame". Perhaps the biggest clue to their not having decided to kill J/C though is what they DIDN'T allow to happen - for example, Janeway's romance in "Workforce"? - not real. Janeway's romance in Fair Haven? - not real. Chakotay's romance in "Human Error"? - not real. Chakotay's romance in "Unforgettable"? - mental manipulation. Chakotay's romance in "Unity" - mental manipulation. Even Chakotay's 'romance' (and I use the word lightly) in "In The Flesh" was all about deception. Smoke n mirrors, the whole lot. Even those non-J/C 'romances' for J and C in their way speak volumns about what the writers were not prepared to do ie: kill J/C stone dead.
That's a case in point/fine example of the teasing - and exactly how I interpreted the scene as well. Those candle-lit dinners of theirs were not the dinners of an uninterested in each other Command team simply meeting to discuss ship's business. Janeway's "We've waited long enough" was loaded with innuendo. That look of hers and the way she says the words was plenty-enough teasing for us to keep on believing that there'd be a J/C pay-off at some point or at the end. Throw in the playful banter and her loving touch to Chakotay's face and I was in J/C heaven
On top of that, I think it was around the end of season 5 if memory serves, we had an about-face by Kate Mulgrew who was saying at cons that we were going to see developments between Janeway and Chakotay, and that 'Janeway's not dead yet' etc. Now, I'm not saying that KM didn't believe that at the time - I think she did - but it really didn't help did it?
Personally, I'm one of those people who only watched Voyager for the J/C 'ship beyond a certain point. So much of the series felt re-hashed and 'been there, done that already' and 'oh, loook! Seven saves the day - again!'. There were a couple of story surprises here and there, but my only real interest was what was happening with J/C so I could get the skinny on what all the J/C fanfics were about.
But, as late as "Shattered" there were still heavy hints that I'd see a good J/C resolution - and I'm not even talking about the "Just how close do we get scene". Take the fact that Janeway loaned Chakotay her copy of "La Vita Nuova" which had been an engagement present from her then fiance Mark. That was just dripping with J/C innuendo for those who wanted to see it. Also, the hand-holding on the Bridge was adorable and SOOO open to interpretation. If you weren't looking, hey no harm no foul, but if you were those things were a heck of a big carrot on a stick - and those are the sort of things I think PKTrekGirl is referring to.
First and foremost I'm a Chakotay fan, and these days I too am glad that he ended up with someone, even if only for a short while. He must have been the lonliest guy on the ship when it came to romance imho. It wasn't only Janeway who was restrained by rank and reporting protocol. I wanted him to be happy, and if Seven made him happy then I was sad/mad over my J/C dreams, but there was at least a sense that he had found someone to love him back openly. The timing sucked donkey balls though. Why couldn't they have done C/7 in season 5 or 6? I'll tell you why - cos they didn't want to rock the 'ships
They were quite prepared to keep ALL 'shipper groups dangling in the breeze until the absolute last, possible moment. Exhibit A - "Endgame".Let's face it, the viewing figures were so abysmal and all the 'shipper groups were doing such a bang-up job of advertising the show with their fics and their music vids, they probably thought they couldn't afford to lose anyone, but by "Endgame" it really didn't matter about offending J/Cers or J/7ers, or Doc/7ers did it. They shafted us all in the end in the worst possible way, when there was really no need. Nothing says, "Thanks and f*ck you!" louder to all of the main shipper groups there were than what they did, in my opinion
So if it wasn't illegal, and Janeway and/or Chakotay really did have the hots for one another, they could've just made holographic templates of one another (and maybe even collaborated on the project to get things just right). Since Janeway altered a turn-of-the-century bartender to fit her needs instead, it makes me think otherwise.
I guess I don't see where all the hatred towards the Seven/Chakotay relationship comes from. True, there was quite a bit of animosity between the two at the start, but at least Chakotay didn't try to morph Seven into something she wasn't. Throughout the show, they grudgingly accepted each other as they were (and in some cases, found common ground). As has been noted before, Star Trek isn't known for its portrayal of romance. A little more foreshadowing of the relationship would've been nice, but I didn't have a problem with the concept itself.
I was always a bit surprised that Kira didn't rip into Quark more in "Meridian". It may or may not have been "illegal", but I got the impression that it was definitey taboo, and Kira (who had a bit of an aversion to holosuites to begin with) didn't strike me as the kind of gal that would stand for that.
I completely agree with all of this. :thumbsup:Brennyren said:
I disagree. I think the fact that Voyager got home by a deus ex machina rather than through their own efforts, and that the last episode of the show ever focused on that whole damn "Janeway versus the Borg Queen" catfight nearly to the exclusion of everyone else, are far more damaging to "Endgame," and to the series, than who ended up boinking whom.
Yeah, it does. Especially considering how badly Trek does most of the 'ships they actually do.
I read through the ENT forum during the last couple seasons of the series, and I distinctly remember thinking that some people needed a major perspective check. That was another series with bigger problems than who was doin' it with whom. And as I recall, the mods actually felt the need to put a moratorium on 'shipper talk, and later to limit it, because some shippers were incapable of even being civil to those who preferred a conflicting ship. Does that kind of attitude (on the part of the 'shippers, I hastily add, not the mods) seem right or reasonable to you?
If memory serves, most of the J/C romantic buildup was in Seasons One and Two. And I distinctly recall reading a TV Guide Fall Season issue, pre-Season Three, where one of the producers specifically said that the decision had been made not to pursue J/C.
The last J/Cish bit I recall was back in "Timeless" (Season Five), and nothing had happened between them for so long before that, that that candlelight scene seemed to me to come entirely out of the blue. In fact, I think that particular scene could as easily be interpreted as Janeway seducing Chakotay into agreement -- which is actually how I interpreted it at the time.
Several years after the last tangible hint of J/C romance (and an arguable one, at that!), I don't think changing course constitutes "pull[ing] the rug out from under" anyone.
Yeah, yeah, they did it all just to piss off the J/Cers. Poor persecuted J/Cers.
Now they're persecuting Seven/anyone-other-than-Chak fans, too? Methinks some fans think they're far more significant in the grand scheme of things than they actually are.
Brennyren
Whether this sort of stuff is legal or not....it's creepy as hell.
I agree. Yes C/7 was icky but one could easily fast forward through those scenes without losing the storyline. Unfortunately, the storyline is such that it's not really worth the effort, imo.
Ironically enough I didn't become a J/Cer until the later seasons. While the hints were more obvious in the first few seasons I wasn't sure if I even liked the idea. It gradually grew on me until by the time "Timeless" rolled around it made sense to me.
There was even talk of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra in Season 7. It's a shame they didn't have the guts to go through with this idea since dealing with the repercussions afterwards would have been a nice character arc for the two as well as an opportunity to resolve the relationship one way or the other before the end of the series. Then if they wanted to pair Chakotay with someone (not Seven - still too icky) it wouldn't have been such a big deal.
Oh well, there remains lots of fanfiction.
They did give us a bone in Shattered, when first seasons Janeway asked seventh season Chakotay if they were making the beast with two backs? If these bastardo's had been on the ball then Chuckles could have pointed out Season 3-4's completely Borged out Seven of Nine as they met, as the "woman" which made his world stand still.
Arrgh!
If only this episode had focussed on Chakotay's sexlife rather than bolstering Janeway's wavering sense of personality. Imagine seaosn one bajoran Seska decking Season 2-3 knocked up Seska "YOU LET THAT IDIOT PUT A THING IN YOU!!??"
Arrgh!
If only this episode had focussed on Chakotay's sexlife rather than bolstering Janeway's wavering sense of personality. Imagine seaosn one bajoran Seska decking Season 2-3 knocked up Seska "YOU LET THAT IDIOT PUT A THING IN YOU!!??"
Remember the space whales? Chuckles had the tools to cancel sexuality.
Lets not forget Riely the Borg and that blonde mass murderer hottie from the Equinox Five... And he made out with an 8472 WHO LIKED IT!!! Then there's the Future with that gorgeous girl from the rescue mission to the ice planet after Voyager crashed.
Tom tapped out early, Neelix was harmless, Kim had no follow through and even though he was married, having tank Girl trying to get in Tuvok's pants is worth the same points as any 5 other regular women...
They're all wet paper bags of mass romance.
So unless you count the Doctor, then Chakotay was the sexy seed spreading Alpha male.
Tom tapped out early, Neelix was harmless, Kim had no follow through and even though he was married, having tank Girl trying to get in Tuvok's pants is worth the same points as any 5 other regular women...
They're all wet paper bags of mass romance.So unless you count the Doctor, then Chakotay was the sexy seed spreading Alpha male.
Neelix got with that Klingon chick in Tuvok's quarters. Harmless, maybe but it also means he likes wild sex.Guy Gardener said:
Lets not forget Riely the Borg and that blonde mass murderer hottie from the Equinox Five... And he made out with an 8472 WHO LIKED IT!!! Then there's the Future with that gorgeous girl from the rescue mission to the ice planet after Voyager crashed.
Tom tapped out early, Neelix was harmless, Kim had no follow through and even though he was married, having tank Girl trying to get in Tuvok's pants is worth the same points as any 5 other regular women...
So unless you count the Doctor, then Chakotay was the sexy seed spreading Alpha male.
Neelix is a true party animal.
Neelix had to lie his ass off to trick that woman into taking his pants off, unless of course everyone takes turns beating up Kim for the sheer thrill of it. Of course saying that he's willing to the contort the truth to get "space whoopie" is only saying that he is male and not that he is a dangerous stud.
Guy Gardener said:
Lets not forget Riely the Borg and that blonde mass murderer hottie from the Equinox Five... And he made out with an 8472 WHO LIKED IT!!! Then there's the Future with that gorgeous girl from the rescue mission to the ice planet after Voyager crashed.
Tom tapped out early, Neelix was harmless, Kim had no follow through and even though he was married, having tank Girl trying to get in Tuvok's pants is worth the same points as any 5 other regular women...
So unless you count the Doctor, then Chakotay was the sexy seed spreading Alpha male.
You know...as pitiful as this makes the men of VOY sound...I have to agree with you, pretty much.
Tom Paris had a chance of rivaling him in the beginning...but after Bad Boy Tom Paris was wussified, the only even remotely Alpha male left was Chakotay.
Which is actually quite likely WHY so many people still care about the topic of this thread, now that I think of it!
freak said:
I couldn't stand the C/7 relationship at all. The producers just wanted to spice things up a bit with those two.
Ok I want everyone to think for a moment. Who seemed to be Janeway’s two favorite people? Seven and Chakotay. What better motivator for her to break the temporal prime directive than to save two of her favorite people?
I am not saying that it was a good idea, but it should explain a few things on why things were done the way they were. Or that is how I see it. But who am I???? No one
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