While I agree with much of what you say I will certainly join you in this if it is indeed a minority position. The Klingons have rarely been so interesting as in these episodes.
Series Rewatch Leading Up to Season 3
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
I won't go as detailed as I did with the beginning of the first episode. But I find the opening scenes of a first episode are what tell me what the series wants to do in a nutshell. It's where what characters say and what we see represents what happens later the most. I also did the same with the opening scenes of Picard.
I initially hated the Klingon redesign, but time, context, and a realization that visual aesthetic is not, has never been, and will never be a Canonical consideration has shifted my viewpoint.
It didn't take DSC long (just 3 episodes) to supplant DS9 as my favorite Star Trek series, largely because subverting the typical Trek formula by only introducing us to 4 of the main characters/Series Regulars in the first two episodes and not bringing in the show's titular vessel right away put the narrative onus on the characters in a way that no other Trek series had , and the third episode continued that progression with the introduction of the rest of the show's main characterse,!rd c and the USS Discovery.
It didn't take DSC long (just 3 episodes) to supplant DS9 as my favorite Star Trek series, largely because subverting the typical Trek formula by only introducing us to 4 of the main characters/Series Regulars in the first two episodes and not bringing in the show's titular vessel right away put the narrative onus on the characters in a way that no other Trek series had , and the third episode continued that progression with the introduction of the rest of the show's main characterse,!rd c and the USS Discovery.
I had a bad case of Real Life, but I'm getting caught up now. Other points about "The Vulcan Hello":
I like that the series starts off with Burnham and Saru, the two main characters, already knowing each other and having a rapport.
When Burnham heads into space, to see what's out there, and she takes in the vistas, that's my favorite space scene in all of Star Trek. In that scene, space felt majestic in Star Trek for the first time since TMP.
Mirror Georgiou isn't the only one who could be playful. Prime Georgiou was also playful when she got a kick out of Burnham and Saru agreeing with each other.
Saru's really changed. In "The Vulcan Hello", he wants to turn around at the first sign of trouble. Georgiou reminds him that they're in Federation Space, so they don't need to turn around. They're in the right. Saru, at this point, just wants to do what's safe. Not necessarily what's right.
I like this exchange between Burnham and Georgiou regarding the Klingons...
Georgiou: "I have to hope that whatever happens here can serve as a bridge between our civilizations."
Burnham: "That's the diplomat in you talking. What does the soldier say?"
Georgiou: "Nothing good."
This one exchange sums up the duality of Starfleet.
I like that the series starts off with Burnham and Saru, the two main characters, already knowing each other and having a rapport.
When Burnham heads into space, to see what's out there, and she takes in the vistas, that's my favorite space scene in all of Star Trek. In that scene, space felt majestic in Star Trek for the first time since TMP.
Mirror Georgiou isn't the only one who could be playful. Prime Georgiou was also playful when she got a kick out of Burnham and Saru agreeing with each other.
Saru's really changed. In "The Vulcan Hello", he wants to turn around at the first sign of trouble. Georgiou reminds him that they're in Federation Space, so they don't need to turn around. They're in the right. Saru, at this point, just wants to do what's safe. Not necessarily what's right.
I like this exchange between Burnham and Georgiou regarding the Klingons...
Georgiou: "I have to hope that whatever happens here can serve as a bridge between our civilizations."
Burnham: "That's the diplomat in you talking. What does the soldier say?"
Georgiou: "Nothing good."
This one exchange sums up the duality of Starfleet.
Last edited:
This is my fourth rewatch of DSC, but for some reason I'm only just now 'cottoning on' to the amount of blatant 'red flags' the writing staff planted regarding Lorca early on.
I was also struck this time around by just how tragic it is that Sarek never had an opportunity to reconcile with Michael over the damage that his shameful forced choice on the day of her Vulcan Science Academy commencement caused her.
I was also struck this time around by just how tragic it is that Sarek never had an opportunity to reconcile with Michael over the damage that his shameful forced choice on the day of her Vulcan Science Academy commencement caused her.
It's a shame, I thought he was the only compelling character on the show, and then they turned him into a predictable cartoon bad guy
He wasn't "turned" into anything.
The writers were heavily planting 'red flags' from his very first appearance, which is why I was surprised if took me until a fourth viewing to truly appreciate just how heavy-handed they were.
I picked up that something was up from the time of "Lethe". I'm pretty sure they were going for a Mad Men type of deal where Don Draper, the main character over there, wasn't really who he said he was.
In fact, the story about Lorca deserting the Buran has shades of Don Draper deserting the Korean during the Korean War. Harry Mudd, like Pete Campbell, was hoping he had Lorca with a "Gotcha!" Moment when they were in that Klingon cell.
And when Cornwell noticed something was up with Lorca when she looked at his scars and he pulled a phaser on her, it's a faster and more extreme version of when Betty Draper thought something was up with her husband, Don.
They said they were looking at Prestige TV, as DSC was being developed. When I think "Prestige TV", I think Mad Men, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, those type of shows. All of them star criminals, bad men, who present the appearance living a legit life.
By the way, Mad Men happens to be my favorite TV show of all time. Period. And I know that show inside-out. But I still have no problem with Discovery.
In fact, the story about Lorca deserting the Buran has shades of Don Draper deserting the Korean during the Korean War. Harry Mudd, like Pete Campbell, was hoping he had Lorca with a "Gotcha!" Moment when they were in that Klingon cell.
And when Cornwell noticed something was up with Lorca when she looked at his scars and he pulled a phaser on her, it's a faster and more extreme version of when Betty Draper thought something was up with her husband, Don.
They said they were looking at Prestige TV, as DSC was being developed. When I think "Prestige TV", I think Mad Men, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, those type of shows. All of them star criminals, bad men, who present the appearance living a legit life.
By the way, Mad Men happens to be my favorite TV show of all time. Period. And I know that show inside-out. But I still have no problem with Discovery.
Last edited:
Heavily planted red flags yet it took you four viewings to notice them?
I appreciate they may have had the intention for him to turn all along (or perhaps not), but the agony booth scene where the switch was flicked turned me off on Discovery so much. He was, to me, the only compelling character on the show, then he became 100% comic book baddie and they just killed him off. It was a big shame, imo. Here was their chance to tell a story about a different kind of Starfleet captain, but no, he's just evil. Great.
Last edited:
^ It didn't take me four viewings to notice the 'red flags'; it took me four viewings to truly appreciate just how early the writers telegraphed Lorca's true nature, which is on me exclusively.
I strongly appreciate this post.
Thanks to Lower Decks I am subscribed again to CBS AA. I rewatched the first 3 Discovery episodes (Just like Picard it had a 3 part pilot). As I expected Discovery holds out well on repeated viewing. It was especially nice to see Lorca again, what a great character played perfectly by Isaacs.
I do hope they bring back Jason Isaacs for a two parter sometime in Season 4 or maybe Strange New Worlds. No, he's got his own career but I would very much love to know that the Lorca they're presenting is pretty close to the original. It also puts to lie Spock's statement that it is easier for a civilized man to impersonate a savage than the reverse. Lorca was apparently close enough that his own ex-girlfriend/long time friend wasn't able to tell the difference after sex.
In any case, rewatching myself and have some other thoughts:
"Vulcan Hello" and "Battle of the Binary Stars" thoughts
+ I feel a big issue with this series is that Georgiou is possibly TOO good at what she does with her limited screentime. The producers of LOST actually told JJ Abrams that he couldn't kill Jack Shepard like he planned because after an episode of getting to know him, the audience would be pissed if they switched to Kate and Sawyer with a sudden death. Captain Georgiou, Saru, and Michael have a familiar as well as likable enough dynamic that you could watch a series about them without a problem. It doesn't help that Michelle Yeoh is fantastic and the first woman of color captain in a "lead" role (however short).
+ I kind of wonder if they'd reduced the budget per episode and made a part 1 of Season 1 where we followed the Shenzou crew for 13 episodes and then like Buffy did a AMAZING TWIST series ender where she's killed and the Shenzou abandoned. Part of my issue with "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle of the Binary Stars" is they don't feel like a pilot. They feel like the end of a season.
+ T'Kuvma is also a villain perhaps too good for a two parter as having him lead the Klingon version of ISIS would have been an awesome show on its own. Maybe have his attempt to unite the Klingons FAIL and he has to use his single house versus the Federation. Certainly, he's a more interesting character than Kol. Admittedly, the actor problems would have killed this to
begin with.
+ Speaking in Klingon is impressive but, really, they should have just spoken normally. There's a lot of exposition being communicated here and it would help if we could just hear it in normal tones.
+ I love the tombship, "the body is but a shell" be damned.
+ Georgiou commits a war crime by putting a proton torpoedo in a Klingon corpse. It makes Michael's later statements about the Geneva Convention sound like B.S.
+ T'Kuvma is an incredibly dishonorable Klingon but that's part of his duality as he's implicitly motivated by racism. He's entirely honorable to Klingons and possessed of a great love even for "deformed" ones like Voq but this does not extend outside of his tribe.
+ The Admiral dismisses Michael's statements about Klingons as racism but, ironically, shows how racist HE IS by ignoring everything about Klingon culture to deal with it on Federation terms. It's an interesting critique of Starfleet and perhaps a justified one. He assumes they all want the same thing.
+ Also, the Federation just ignores the fact Klingons killed Michael's family as not "counting" in having had encounters with them over the years.
+ Michael gunning down T'Kuvma is the real mistake she makes for both her mentor and herself. If she'd stunned T'Kuvma and transported him away then the war would have been over and he would have probably committed suicide in his cell.
+ I wonder if T'Kuvma is actually remembered despite his title. Because it's a funny joke if the Klingons rewrite history without him because it ended in a stalemate.
Last edited:
Yeah, that's the way I felt too, it all felt comfortable and natural. And looking back on the season, I could have taken 6 or 7 more episodes on the Shenzhou, easily...
One thing on subsequent viewings that I've done a complete reversal on was the opening Klingon scene. First watching it I remember thinking, "Whoa, any non-Star Trek viewer is going to look at this and think 'What the hell is this?' and turn away". Because at the time I though it looked kind of goofy. The safe first introduction to the series would have been the Philippa and Michael walking in the desert on the Crepusculan's homeworld scene. It's nice and space-y and Star Trek-y and neat.
Looking at it again, the Klingon opening has grown on me. It's not as goofy as I thought it was on first viewing, and I do really miss this version of the Klingons. I remember a lot of people having problems with them, but I really liked them. I felt they were the best version ever. Of course, I almost always like "the new" over the old, so... And I was never a huge fan of the Klingons to begin with, so anything that was different than what was before is pretty much okay with me.
I guess it might be interesting to see the reaction this time around from the mainstream, if there is a reaction.
So, I just finished episode 4 of season 1 and I'm starting to wonder if Ash wasn't the reason for the radical Klingon redesign. I'm not against redesigning the Klingons in general, and I liked the toned down makeup in Season 2 more, but I'm not going to lie, the heavy makeup IS impeding some of their performances. That got me wondering why Fuller would have wanted them this way, and I wonder if it was because of Ash. Did he have the makeup designed so heavily that it had a better chance of concealing Shazad Latif to preserve the Ash twist later on. In addition, he wanted to tell his war story, so the aliens HAD to be Klingons, otherwise the canonistas would start the "How come we never heard of these aliens/war before?"
Xindi.
Honestly, people love Klingons and I very much wanted to see the war against them.
Similar threads
