Series Rewatch Leading Up to Season 3
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
Finishing Season 1 and starting Season 2, it's interesting to look back and connect all of the dots with regards to what was going on off-screen between the end of Will You Take My Hand? and the beginning of Brother and realize through hindsight that Starfleet Command's plan was always for Pike to take command, albeit temporarily, of the Discovery. Both the Enterprise and Discovery were headed to Vulcan, where Pike's new assignment and Discovery's new missionwould've likely been laid out in a meeting between him, Discovery's senior crew, and Starfleet brass, with Sarek probably present as well.
I rewatched "living witness" from VOY last night and realized that the backup EMH should be arriving at earth around the same time as Discovery appears in the 32nd century
So purely because of the small sample size, I promised myself I would not rewatch Discovery that much, so I take it really easy, savoring it like a fine wine...but, I am going to watch the two-part season two finale before the new season streams!
RAMA
RAMA
He's going to be so ticked off when he finds out the Talaxians had transwarp by then and could have given him a lift.
That two-parter might just be my favorite part of Discovery thus far. I love it so much. I know it gets critique for being too much "sound and fury." I sort of get it. But it works for me.
Honestly, the hate that DSC gets baffles me. It’s so good in so many ways. Sure, it’s a mile away from the easily digested, Orville-esque stuff that some people want, but I really like it and I am glad they’ve avoided the traps of making it lighthearted and puerile. So much to like from it. Season 3 could really solidify the show. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens in the future. Oh, and Michael looks gorgeous in the trailers.
And that's why it's hated on some levels.
On others it is simply that not all shows are for all people.
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Works well, in my opinion. It’s a bit more episodic early on but then back into the serialised stuff that benefits from the binge.
So I am just starting my rewatch prepping for season 3. Just finished "Context is for Kings". I had forgotten, a little, how big and impressive Discovery's start is. The two-parter opening is really movie quality and "Context..." keeps the ball rolling with great character introductions and a good mystery/premise with the spore drive. I feel like Discovery drops the ball a little later on when the serialized storytelling falls apart in places - but for now they are firing on all cylinders.
The new "main" characters are almost universally good or great: Saru, Georgiou, Tilly, and Lorca being my favorites. Though I also like Burnham and Stamets, Burnham is a little too much "tell" and not "show" on how 'awesome' she is; and they round off Stamets rough edges a little too fast. Like others have said, I could definitely watch a Shenzhou show. Bring back Prime Georgiou (and Prime Lorca)!
The few things that still bug me in these first three episodes are all pretty minor - the security chief being a largely terrible person, everyone (except, if I remember correctly, Lorca) blaming Burnham for starting the war when she clearly and explicitly doesn't, Sarek's super mind meld (why couldn't Burnham just have had a "discussion" with the remnant of Sarek's katra?), etc.
The only big problem is the redesign of the Klingons and their struggle to speak. Even the captions/translations are broken up awkwardly on screen such that the emotion and meaning of their speeches are largely shredded. In fact, their whole redesign was a mistake, but like the previous poster said, likely done to cover for the "twist" the Voc was Tyler (which wasn't needed and could have been done with two different actors). Nothing about it seemed to work well - the costumes, while beautiful, were constrictive on the actors movements, the makeup doubly so, despite all the promises that we would learn more about the Klingons and see differentiation in their Houses, there was basically none of that beyond some war paint. The ship redesigns were also a mess and you couldn't even see them in the poorly staged and lighted space shots of them. For all of Fuller's apparently expansive imagination, I don't think that much of what he brought in this area was very effective.
I look forward to rewatching the rest of the season and season 2.
I agree with most everything you said except this one bit. I am no space lawyer (just a backwoods hyperchicken), but I did some reading on this topic back when the show first aired and it is clear from the current conventions about war crimes that planting a bomb on a dead body on an active battlefield to attack your opponent, as Georgiou does, is not a war crime. The language about war crimes and dead bodies was, if I remember correctly, all about protecting civilians or other non-combatants from being harmed when interacting with the bodies. It doesn't apply to opposing military forces during the fight. Plus it is a little disingenuous to argue that it is Georgiou who commits war crimes when the Klingons invade Federation space, set a trap to draw the Federation in by damaging Starfleet property, attack Burnham first, fire on the Federation task force with no cause or declaration, and attack again after agreeing to a cease-fire. So, Georgiou was the bad guy here? Like Captain Freeman says, the Klingons are "lucky [Starfleet is] so ethical and considerate."
The new "main" characters are almost universally good or great: Saru, Georgiou, Tilly, and Lorca being my favorites. Though I also like Burnham and Stamets, Burnham is a little too much "tell" and not "show" on how 'awesome' she is; and they round off Stamets rough edges a little too fast. Like others have said, I could definitely watch a Shenzhou show. Bring back Prime Georgiou (and Prime Lorca)!
The few things that still bug me in these first three episodes are all pretty minor - the security chief being a largely terrible person, everyone (except, if I remember correctly, Lorca) blaming Burnham for starting the war when she clearly and explicitly doesn't, Sarek's super mind meld (why couldn't Burnham just have had a "discussion" with the remnant of Sarek's katra?), etc.
The only big problem is the redesign of the Klingons and their struggle to speak. Even the captions/translations are broken up awkwardly on screen such that the emotion and meaning of their speeches are largely shredded. In fact, their whole redesign was a mistake, but like the previous poster said, likely done to cover for the "twist" the Voc was Tyler (which wasn't needed and could have been done with two different actors). Nothing about it seemed to work well - the costumes, while beautiful, were constrictive on the actors movements, the makeup doubly so, despite all the promises that we would learn more about the Klingons and see differentiation in their Houses, there was basically none of that beyond some war paint. The ship redesigns were also a mess and you couldn't even see them in the poorly staged and lighted space shots of them. For all of Fuller's apparently expansive imagination, I don't think that much of what he brought in this area was very effective.
I look forward to rewatching the rest of the season and season 2.
I agree with most everything you said except this one bit. I am no space lawyer (just a backwoods hyperchicken), but I did some reading on this topic back when the show first aired and it is clear from the current conventions about war crimes that planting a bomb on a dead body on an active battlefield to attack your opponent, as Georgiou does, is not a war crime. The language about war crimes and dead bodies was, if I remember correctly, all about protecting civilians or other non-combatants from being harmed when interacting with the bodies. It doesn't apply to opposing military forces during the fight. Plus it is a little disingenuous to argue that it is Georgiou who commits war crimes when the Klingons invade Federation space, set a trap to draw the Federation in by damaging Starfleet property, attack Burnham first, fire on the Federation task force with no cause or declaration, and attack again after agreeing to a cease-fire. So, Georgiou was the bad guy here? Like Captain Freeman says, the Klingons are "lucky [Starfleet is] so ethical and considerate."
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule80
The LOAC Manual further states:
4.41 Booby traps are objects that are designed to injure or kill and which explode when a person approaches or disturbs an apparently harmless object or performs an apparently safe act.
4.42 Booby traps that appear to be apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material are prohibited. In particular they should not be attached to or associated with:
• internationally recognised protective emblems;
• corpses, casualties or the sick;
• burial, cremation sites or graves;
• medical facilities, equipment, supplies or transportation;
• children’s toys or objects designed for feeding, health, hygiene, clothing or education of children;
• food or drink;
• kitchen utensils or appliances (except those in military establishments, locations or supply depots);
• objects of a religious nature;
• historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples; or
• animals or their carcasses.
The LOAC Manual further states:
4.41 Booby traps are objects that are designed to injure or kill and which explode when a person approaches or disturbs an apparently harmless object or performs an apparently safe act.
4.42 Booby traps that appear to be apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material are prohibited. In particular they should not be attached to or associated with:
• internationally recognised protective emblems;
• corpses, casualties or the sick;
• burial, cremation sites or graves;
• medical facilities, equipment, supplies or transportation;
• children’s toys or objects designed for feeding, health, hygiene, clothing or education of children;
• food or drink;
• kitchen utensils or appliances (except those in military establishments, locations or supply depots);
• objects of a religious nature;
• historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples; or
• animals or their carcasses.
Exactly, but all the associated language specifies that this is in service of protecting civilians. The combatants are supposed to record the locations of their booby traps and do the most they can to prevent civilians from interacting with them, and removing them after the battle is over/has moved on.
"The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry": The show still looks amazing even if it is a little more "TV" presentation than "epic movie" presentation. The character work is still very good. Saru and Tilly are sarcastic and fun, respectively, and Lorca is a driving force who walks the line between an aggressive war fighter and "is there something wrong with him?" The Klingon storyline is still a little plodding and rough. It's just hard to care about them either as underdogs (Voq and L'Rell) or straight up villains (Kor), though Kor is closest to having a real umph among the Klingon characters.
I like Burnham's science focus as opposing Lorca and Landry's militant focus. And the urgency to safe the colony is a good driving mechanism that keeps energy in the plot.
All around, still great, and still really enjoying the rewatch.
"Choose Your Pain": A step down from the first 4 episodes. Saru gets some good stuff being acting captain and with his relationship/reaction to Burnham. The science stuff with the tardigrade is pretty good, though it feels too convenient that a human is the only DNA match. Plus since they kick off their search saying they need a "host" who can consent to the process, doesn't that mean it would have to be a human or other sentient crew member? So why the hand-wringing over the "genetic engineering" issue if you knew it from the start? They probably could approached it a little differently, maybe realized partway in that they would require consent.
And again, the Klingon portion of the story is a drag. I really like Shazad Latif, and Wilson is good as Mudd (but he is better in "Magic...") but again it is hard for the Klingon's to be full characters when they can't move or emote that much, plus I feel it detracts from the story when the viewer knows it is all just a setup for later stuff.
But still sprinkled throughout are good character moments between Lorca and Cornwell, Lorca and Mudd and Tyler, the science team on Discovery, etc.
Still wish we had Prime Georgiou back.
I like Burnham's science focus as opposing Lorca and Landry's militant focus. And the urgency to safe the colony is a good driving mechanism that keeps energy in the plot.
All around, still great, and still really enjoying the rewatch.
"Choose Your Pain": A step down from the first 4 episodes. Saru gets some good stuff being acting captain and with his relationship/reaction to Burnham. The science stuff with the tardigrade is pretty good, though it feels too convenient that a human is the only DNA match. Plus since they kick off their search saying they need a "host" who can consent to the process, doesn't that mean it would have to be a human or other sentient crew member? So why the hand-wringing over the "genetic engineering" issue if you knew it from the start? They probably could approached it a little differently, maybe realized partway in that they would require consent.
And again, the Klingon portion of the story is a drag. I really like Shazad Latif, and Wilson is good as Mudd (but he is better in "Magic...") but again it is hard for the Klingon's to be full characters when they can't move or emote that much, plus I feel it detracts from the story when the viewer knows it is all just a setup for later stuff.
But still sprinkled throughout are good character moments between Lorca and Cornwell, Lorca and Mudd and Tyler, the science team on Discovery, etc.
Still wish we had Prime Georgiou back.
So, I just finished season 2 episode 1. I still loved season 1. One thing that did jump out at me, however, is the relationship between Ash and Burnham. #1, they have zero chemistry. But more importantly, #2 when binging the series as opposed to watching week to week, the relationship between Burnham and Ash feels WAY too fast. In episode 7, she is working up the nerve to kiss him. In episode 11, he tells her he's Voq, and she admits later that she loved him. I mean, 8, 9 and 10 are all one continuous sweep of events that probably take place over a few days so the only time that love could have built is off screen between episodes 7 and 8. Outside of that, primo stuff. I loved the Stamets/Culber bickering couple (felt very real), loved the whole Lorca arc, I loved Burnham's arc, I loved Saru's development into a good acting captain. I don't think she really earned speechifying before the Starfleet brass at the end of the season but it's her show so I'll allow it.
"Battle at the Binary Stars"
Georgiou notices that Saru has read and is familiar with Sun Tzu. Mirror Georgiou would notice this too, in the second season. So both Georgious studied his tactics.
Georgiou and Burnham -- the Captain and First Officer -- beaming over to the Klingon ship shows everything that's wrong with Landing Party procedures in the 23rd Century. Kirk was lucky enough to survive every time in TOS, but Georgiou wasn't. There are any number of times where Kirk could've just as easily ended up like Georgiou.
They managed to really bookend Burnham's time on the Shenzhou. From the time Burnham first came onboard and Georgiou hoped to mold her, to the end when Georgiou painfully realized Burnham wasn't ready to be the Captain she hoped she'd be and had misread her.
I think Georgiou misread Burnham because Burnham herself was confused. She was trying to be a Vulcan and, in reality, was trying to be something she's not. Georgiou was wrong about Burnham because Burnham was wrong about herself.
EDIT: Another thing I have to add is how much I liked the argument between Burnham and the computer when she was trying to get out of the brig to save her life.
At the end, the dramatic staged lighting when Burnham was sentenced was very spooky, somber, and delivered the tone they were going for. They need to take this type of dramatic license with the lighting more often. It was very effective. It sold the scene in ways that dialogue alone never would've. The darkness showed just how bleak everything looked and felt for Burnham with that sentence. Like the light shut off on her life.
Burnham was dead-convinced her life was effectively over. In the next episode, she discovered new meaning for it again.
"Context Is for Kings"
They really played up Lorca's mysteriousness. By the end of the episode, the first time I saw it, I thought, "This is one messed up Captain!" I couldn't wait to see what he had in mind next.
I loved when Lorca showed Burnham everything the Spore Drive had the potential to do. He sold Burnham on it.. and he sold me on it. Even though Lorca's an evil bastard, he knows how to pitch something to someone.
After "Context Is for Kings", I'm glad Stamets dropped the "Who the Hell do you think you are?" attitude he had towards Burnham in this episode. It would've gotten old really fast, had it continued. Once Burnham shows that she can be a team player and really can bring something to the table, that's when he finally eases up on her. To the point where he hands Burnham a phaser to get the Tartigrade's attention when Landry refuses.
EDIT: I mentioned this before and I'll bring it up here too. Stamets reminds me of David Marcus in that he doesn't appreciate that his work has been co-opted by the military and he views himself a scientist first and foremost.
Tilly shows that she's willing to give anyone a chance is won't judge people based solely on their past. She's the only one who's willing to become friends with Burnham or not look down on her. Aside from Lorca, who thinks the ends justify the means and, like he said, "Rules are for lackeys. Context is for kings."
And in retrospect, it looks like Section 31 was involved with the Discovery's and Glenn's development from the beginning since we see those guards with what we now know are Section 31 badges. Looks like they left the ship when Lorca got the ship ready for active duty.
DOUBLE-EDIT: After the boneheaded choices Burnham made in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars", which she still feels guilt over, "Context Is for Kings" showed the other side of the equation. 1) When other inmates try to attack Burnham, she shows her physical ability to handle a fight. Vulcan martial arts. Even pacifists know how to defend themselves. 2) When Burnham is assigned to be a number-cruncher for Stamets, she shows how mentally adept she is by pointing errors she spotted in Stamets' work. 3) Burnham shows how she can think on her feet when they're up against the Tartigrade in the Glenn. These things all combine to show why she's the lead of the series. It shows how we don't need to have the Captain be the star of the series.
And with the Captain not being the star of the series, it allows them to go nuts with Lorca. He's not the main long-term focus or someone who show is telling us to look up to, so they're free to take him places where they couldn't with any previous Captain.
"The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lambs Cry"
The supreme irony in this episode is when Voq says he doesn't want to use anything from the Shenzhou to power up his ship because he's obsessed with Klingon purity. And then, at the end of the episode, L'Rell sends him off to what we now know when be having him changed to become someone who looks like a human with that same human grafted onto him. So much for "purity".
Toward the end, when Discovery comes to the rescue of the colony, that was Discovery's Hero Moment. That's when it made the splash.
In retrospect: them showing off the Spore Drive and how they managed to get it working in these early episodes will pay off in the third season. I figure in the third season, whatever happened to the galaxy, Discovery's Spore Drive will become more important than ever.
And I have to had, this is the most unconventional Star Trek title ever.
EDIT: I have to add that when Lorca plays the audio from Corvan II, it shows how dire the situation really is there. And if Lorca were a normal Captain that would be it. But Lorca's not a normal Captain. So I think a little bit of it was also him using emotional blackmail to get the results he wanted, to show what the Spore Drive can really do.
DOUBLE-EDIT: One really Star Trek thing in this episode was showing that the Tartigrade isn't just what Lorca and Landry want it to be. We shouldn't judge a creature based on just its appearance. Simple enough message but one that too many people forget too often.
When Landry was killed off, I didn't see that coming at all when it happened. But in retrospect, I don't think she would've gelled with the rest of the crew post-Lorca had she stayed. She was too hardened and not just from the war. It would've been interesting to see some of her backstory, but it wasn't to be. More on her replacement when we get there.
Georgiou notices that Saru has read and is familiar with Sun Tzu. Mirror Georgiou would notice this too, in the second season. So both Georgious studied his tactics.
Georgiou and Burnham -- the Captain and First Officer -- beaming over to the Klingon ship shows everything that's wrong with Landing Party procedures in the 23rd Century. Kirk was lucky enough to survive every time in TOS, but Georgiou wasn't. There are any number of times where Kirk could've just as easily ended up like Georgiou.
They managed to really bookend Burnham's time on the Shenzhou. From the time Burnham first came onboard and Georgiou hoped to mold her, to the end when Georgiou painfully realized Burnham wasn't ready to be the Captain she hoped she'd be and had misread her.
I think Georgiou misread Burnham because Burnham herself was confused. She was trying to be a Vulcan and, in reality, was trying to be something she's not. Georgiou was wrong about Burnham because Burnham was wrong about herself.
EDIT: Another thing I have to add is how much I liked the argument between Burnham and the computer when she was trying to get out of the brig to save her life.
At the end, the dramatic staged lighting when Burnham was sentenced was very spooky, somber, and delivered the tone they were going for. They need to take this type of dramatic license with the lighting more often. It was very effective. It sold the scene in ways that dialogue alone never would've. The darkness showed just how bleak everything looked and felt for Burnham with that sentence. Like the light shut off on her life.
Burnham was dead-convinced her life was effectively over. In the next episode, she discovered new meaning for it again.
"Context Is for Kings"
They really played up Lorca's mysteriousness. By the end of the episode, the first time I saw it, I thought, "This is one messed up Captain!" I couldn't wait to see what he had in mind next.
I loved when Lorca showed Burnham everything the Spore Drive had the potential to do. He sold Burnham on it.. and he sold me on it. Even though Lorca's an evil bastard, he knows how to pitch something to someone.
After "Context Is for Kings", I'm glad Stamets dropped the "Who the Hell do you think you are?" attitude he had towards Burnham in this episode. It would've gotten old really fast, had it continued. Once Burnham shows that she can be a team player and really can bring something to the table, that's when he finally eases up on her. To the point where he hands Burnham a phaser to get the Tartigrade's attention when Landry refuses.
EDIT: I mentioned this before and I'll bring it up here too. Stamets reminds me of David Marcus in that he doesn't appreciate that his work has been co-opted by the military and he views himself a scientist first and foremost.
Tilly shows that she's willing to give anyone a chance is won't judge people based solely on their past. She's the only one who's willing to become friends with Burnham or not look down on her. Aside from Lorca, who thinks the ends justify the means and, like he said, "Rules are for lackeys. Context is for kings."
And in retrospect, it looks like Section 31 was involved with the Discovery's and Glenn's development from the beginning since we see those guards with what we now know are Section 31 badges. Looks like they left the ship when Lorca got the ship ready for active duty.
DOUBLE-EDIT: After the boneheaded choices Burnham made in "The Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars", which she still feels guilt over, "Context Is for Kings" showed the other side of the equation. 1) When other inmates try to attack Burnham, she shows her physical ability to handle a fight. Vulcan martial arts. Even pacifists know how to defend themselves. 2) When Burnham is assigned to be a number-cruncher for Stamets, she shows how mentally adept she is by pointing errors she spotted in Stamets' work. 3) Burnham shows how she can think on her feet when they're up against the Tartigrade in the Glenn. These things all combine to show why she's the lead of the series. It shows how we don't need to have the Captain be the star of the series.
And with the Captain not being the star of the series, it allows them to go nuts with Lorca. He's not the main long-term focus or someone who show is telling us to look up to, so they're free to take him places where they couldn't with any previous Captain.
"The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lambs Cry"
The supreme irony in this episode is when Voq says he doesn't want to use anything from the Shenzhou to power up his ship because he's obsessed with Klingon purity. And then, at the end of the episode, L'Rell sends him off to what we now know when be having him changed to become someone who looks like a human with that same human grafted onto him. So much for "purity".
Toward the end, when Discovery comes to the rescue of the colony, that was Discovery's Hero Moment. That's when it made the splash.
In retrospect: them showing off the Spore Drive and how they managed to get it working in these early episodes will pay off in the third season. I figure in the third season, whatever happened to the galaxy, Discovery's Spore Drive will become more important than ever.
And I have to had, this is the most unconventional Star Trek title ever.
EDIT: I have to add that when Lorca plays the audio from Corvan II, it shows how dire the situation really is there. And if Lorca were a normal Captain that would be it. But Lorca's not a normal Captain. So I think a little bit of it was also him using emotional blackmail to get the results he wanted, to show what the Spore Drive can really do.
DOUBLE-EDIT: One really Star Trek thing in this episode was showing that the Tartigrade isn't just what Lorca and Landry want it to be. We shouldn't judge a creature based on just its appearance. Simple enough message but one that too many people forget too often.
When Landry was killed off, I didn't see that coming at all when it happened. But in retrospect, I don't think she would've gelled with the rest of the crew post-Lorca had she stayed. She was too hardened and not just from the war. It would've been interesting to see some of her backstory, but it wasn't to be. More on her replacement when we get there.
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Since I'm notoriously cheap, I've only just finally bought CBS AA. So, even though I'm completely spoiled, I'm watching the series for the first time. I understand every complaint people have had about series , although it got better towards the end. Series 2 is a substantial improvement (I'm around 25% of the way through). Knowing where the series is going, I get the vibe that everything the Red Angel is doing so far seems to be setting up the world Discovery is going to. Anxious to see if this trend continues. I should be done by the end of the week. Then, Picard.
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