Series 5 'Bible' spoilers
- Thread starter denmaroca
- Start date
That.Any involvement with DW and Fry would make me SQUEE! like a guinea pig. The man's a national treasure.
That would be interesting -- especially since I keep thinking that Hugh Laurie would make a great 11th Doctor.
Fry and Laurie as the Master and the Doctor!
Would.
Be.
AMAZING!
I nearly lost consciousness at the mere suggestion of it.
Soupy twist!
1. Because it's just lame isn't an argument. It's a way of begging the question.
2. It's a bad idea is an assertion.
3. Thanks for actually beginning an argument in the third sentence of your post. But notice that now all you're actually doing is saying that first 4 seasons of the show are in possession of "dramatic integrity" that should be honored.
Okay, fine...but you've done nothing to demonstrate that the only way to honor them is to leave them where they are. We're talking about a show about time travel - by definition that means that "everything is in flux." In case you've missed it, that too is a major conceit of Doctor Who, and it has been so from the start.
4. In fact, one could argue that posing a dilemma for the Doctor as I've outlined above is, in point of fact, a way of taking death seriously in Doctor Who. Why? If the Doctor is faced with the dilemma I posed, then that means he does take death seriously - so seriously that he is morally torn between either leaving his people - all of them - dead or allowing this plan to continue at the risk of the creation of a species of Time Lords that have a great a power as the last one did, but lacking the moral fiber of the Old Order. It was that moral fiber which kept them from interfering in the affairs of other races. There was a reason the old show sometimes called the time when they did interfere "the Dark Time."
Now, if they return sans that morality, then they may see fit to interfere. Historically Time Lords have been forbidden to interfere. "But this one does nothing else but interfere" (Cyberleader, Earthshock 2). If this idea is true, perhaps the idea here is to put the shoe on the other foot for the Doctor for a change. Now, he's placed in the position of the Time Lords. That is, now he's pledged to stop the Time Lords from interfering...the polar opposite of what he's been doing for the majority of his life - a classic role reversal for the Doctor as well as a moral dilemma.
None of that involves the show not taking death seriously. Quite the opposite is the case. Indeed, he may come to realize that, while he's been grieving their loss, the alternative is much worse - a return to the Dark Time, a Time Lord race that has no problem with interfering, a Time Lord race little better than the Daleks. Running about the universe tussling with the Master and the occasional other renegade was one thing, but consider a universe in which these people have free reign, undoing history and setting up their own evil empire or their own private fiefdoms, setting one race against another for their own amusement. The Daleks were all about racial purity; they didn't toy with other races, they just exterminated them; but the Time Lords of those days before Rassilon were said to play with other races for their own amusement.
Ironically, I'm not sure that I can disagree with you.Despite all of that... it's still awesome.
DCtT has an epic, apocalyptic scope that puts anything Who has done before or since to shame. General Tannis is, really, the evil Time Lord done right. (Sci, you talked above about how the Master is the only Time Lord that has the personal and antogonistic relationship with the Doctor. No. The Master is strictly little league compared to Tannis.) Yes, it's plodding. Yes, it's portentious. Yes, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense in the larger context of the Whoniverse. And where it fails, it fails on a stupendous scale. This is Doctor Who as myth, and this is Doctor Who that was willing to do things that Doctor Who had never done before -- and would never do again.
Damn, now I feel like digging out my CDs and giving this a listen. Thanks, Steve.
now that shit sounds cool.
Glad to be of service.DCtT has an epic, apocalyptic scope that puts anything Who has done before or since to shame. General Tannis is, really, the evil Time Lord done right. (Sci, you talked above about how the Master is the only Time Lord that has the personal and antogonistic relationship with the Doctor. No. The Master is strictly little league compared to Tannis.) Yes, it's plodding. Yes, it's portentious. Yes, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense in the larger context of the Whoniverse. And where it fails, it fails on a stupendous scale. This is Doctor Who as myth, and this is Doctor Who that was willing to do things that Doctor Who had never done before -- and would never do again.
Damn, now I feel like digging out my CDs and giving this a listen. Thanks, Steve.
I love General Tannis-- the "Slow Agent."Like all good Doctor Who, Death Comes to Time does something new and something different. As you said, it doesn't always succeed, but it's certainly got epic in spades, and that's great-- but it's also surprisingly effective at the small, painful emotional moments that populate the play from start to finish, especially the material with the Minister of Chance.
Also, it is very close in format and feel to a Russell Davies series finale now that I think about it...
I'm going to take these as possibles, but unlikely. Like your mouth watering Stephen Fry comments (That would be so good wouldn't it!).
Patrick Stewart=good. Monk=bad. If they have too introduce more timelords why can't they invent a new one? For a society of thousands, only five of them ever seem to leave the damn planet!
Ugh. More Daleks. Not too fond of Ice Warriors and Zygons either. I want more Autons!
I like this one, hope it occurs. Any of those things Celtic, non-contemporary, non-London would be a good thing. Actually I'd like non-Earth, but that isn't likely at all.
No idea who Paul Cornell is, but I've yet to be impressed by Neil Gaimans writing.
Whoo! Double Whoo! Triple Whoo!
if the Zygon is true, I wonder what this means for the book "The Sting of the Zygons"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_of_the_Zygons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_of_the_Zygons
here's a blue sky notion. (sarcasm)
the Doctor could run into the Monk, the Rani or even the War Chief
IN THEIR PAST!
as in: TIME-TRAVEL!
He's already met people whom he has yet to meet from his non-linear subjective viewpoint, but who've already met him from their linear subjective viewpoint.
IE Sally Sparrow, Elizabeth I and River Song.
so, why couldn't he meet the 7th Master or the 3rd Rani or the Second War Chief?
AND
for all you FAIL-Merchants bemoaning the fact that returning the Time-Lords would be cheap and lame.
may i point you to "Bad Wolf", "Army of Ghosts", "Utopia" and "The Stolen Earth"
FOUR episodes where after being told only the Doctor and the Lone Dalek - 'the Metaltron' - survived the Last Great Time War, other survivors have appeared. THREE occasions of which have been Daleks or their ilk. For there to have been only 2 Time-Lord survivors is, in such a case, lunacy.
the Doctor could run into the Monk, the Rani or even the War Chief
IN THEIR PAST!
as in: TIME-TRAVEL!
He's already met people whom he has yet to meet from his non-linear subjective viewpoint, but who've already met him from their linear subjective viewpoint.
IE Sally Sparrow, Elizabeth I and River Song.
so, why couldn't he meet the 7th Master or the 3rd Rani or the Second War Chief?
AND
for all you FAIL-Merchants bemoaning the fact that returning the Time-Lords would be cheap and lame.
may i point you to "Bad Wolf", "Army of Ghosts", "Utopia" and "The Stolen Earth"
FOUR episodes where after being told only the Doctor and the Lone Dalek - 'the Metaltron' - survived the Last Great Time War, other survivors have appeared. THREE occasions of which have been Daleks or their ilk. For there to have been only 2 Time-Lord survivors is, in such a case, lunacy.
2 points:
1. Timelords live outside of Time and so hence he can't meet up with them in their past any more than he can travel to Gallifray's dim distant past.
2. Your point about the other survivors is valid, but to be honest I'm getting a bit sick of others surviving this supposedly deadly war.
If they want to bring the Daleks back again, or the Master or every last Timelord then I say do it, but make it as a result of Caan's rescue of Davros and make it PERMANENT!
I think what pisses me off most is the notion that each time the Daleks are finished off, only for another lot of them to trot back again, and I'd hate for the same thing to happen with Timelords.
Personally I'm hoping Davros survived Journey's End, and that if/when the Daleks return they're new post war Daleks, not another gang of soldiers who just happened to survive in yet another convaluted way!
Man I really wish the drumming in the Master's Head had been because he had the conciousnesses of a thousand other Timelords in there who'd escaped the war through him.
Fandom has assumed that -- that Time Lords can't meet "out of order" -- but there's no reason to think that. If anything, the multiple Doctor stories demolish that theory straight up. Only "The Two Doctors" and "The Five Doctors" have Doctors taken out of their proper time to meet with the other Doctors. In "The Two Doctors" the Doctors meet each other in what is apparently their respective "present"s. "Time-Crash" is iffy, and can be interpreted either way. And the seventh Doctor's era was full of hints that he was receiving "inside information" from his future self (or selves).
If you want to include the novels and audios...
The Apocalypse Element has the sixth Doctor and Romana meeting out of order.
Cold Fusion is a meeting of the fifth and seventh Doctors that takes place in their respective "present"s.
The Eight Doctors has the eighth Doctor meeting his past selves in their "present"s.
Alien Bodies has the eighth Doctor meet a Time Lord from his distant future.
Omega has a Time Lord from far in the Doctor's future popping up pretty casually, too.
Yeah I knew the multiple Doctors angle would come up--ok, so it isn't impossible, but which Master would he meet up with? (Actually what a great excuse to get Jacobi back!) Nah while it's fun for a multiple Doctor story I wouldn't like to seen it used as within a more dramatic context.
wasn't feeling very well yesterday so not sure how clear my post above was. I have no objections to Daleks and Timelords surviving, I just dislike the piecemeal way they're going about it.
Hopefully what the 10th Doctor said to Caan about the Timewar being Timelocked in Journey's End opens up the possibility for more escapees without necessarily always having to come up with a new reason every time. Actually what would be interesting is if the whole reason the Timelock is cracking in places stems originally from the Doctor having survived.
wasn't feeling very well yesterday so not sure how clear my post above was. I have no objections to Daleks and Timelords surviving, I just dislike the piecemeal way they're going about it.
Hopefully what the 10th Doctor said to Caan about the Timewar being Timelocked in Journey's End opens up the possibility for more escapees without necessarily always having to come up with a new reason every time. Actually what would be interesting is if the whole reason the Timelock is cracking in places stems originally from the Doctor having survived.
He wasn't up for either of those two parts, but another role in the same story, as the Castellan. Though whether he was actually approached, or it was just a director's 'wish list' is unknown.
Other names on that casting wishlist (it's in the Howe-Stammers-Walker book The Eighties) included...
Borusa: Peter Cushing
Maxil: Pearce Brosnan
Flavia: Honor Blackman
Robin (Tegan's cousin): Jason Carter
Which would have been an incredible line-up, genre-wise, if it had happened...