Separate Defiant Crew vs the DS9 Crew
- Thread starter Nathan
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Not seeing them at all makes it kind of hard to believe in them, though. Why would Starfleet Lt.'s ever be left in charge if a Bajoran is second officer? And why wouldn't the second officer of the station ever be in OPS during a crisis? If something were to happen to Sisko and Kira, they shouldn't have to be called to OPS from halfway across the station before they can take command.
Based on what we've seen, I pretty much have to conclude that Dax and Worf were below Kira in the chain of command and that whoever was below them was apparently so junior or inexperienced that they didn't rate anything more than maybe the occasional night shift in ops (where their job, should anything happen, is to keep things together until the real commander shows up in a few minutes at most), and so are probably not equipped to be left in overall command for a significant length of time.
Based on what we've seen, I pretty much have to conclude that Dax and Worf were below Kira in the chain of command and that whoever was below them was apparently so junior or inexperienced that they didn't rate anything more than maybe the occasional night shift in ops (where their job, should anything happen, is to keep things together until the real commander shows up in a few minutes at most), and so are probably not equipped to be left in overall command for a significant length of time.
Oh for sure. But on the other hand...it’s most likely to be a Bajoran, Sisko and Kira held basically the same rank for the first and last seasons of the show...and if something happened to them both? Well. That would make Ops a very unsafe place to be. So sticking the second officer off in the habitat ring somewhere makes plenty of sense really.
Rewatching the show now before the Dominion was introduced, I really would have preferred if DS9 had been given their own Odyssey class starship. They were always around and were science exploration ships primarily, so it would have made sense.
I think I just really like the look of the ship though. Reminds me of a next gen version of the Miranda class.
Do you mean Nebula-class? Or maybe Centaur? Akira?
Odyssey-class AFAIK is the STO-exclusive "Super-Sovereign" replacement for the Galaxy-class so neither a "next gen" or "Miranda-class inspired" design.
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'Sisko and Kira held the same rank for the first/last seasons'.
As for ops being unsafe, obviously it would be in any battle and most crises. But it's also where you need to be to command the station.
Realistically, one would probably expect the second officer of a starship to be stationed at the 'battle bridge' during a crisis, just in case, but actual starfleet precedence shows us Data and Tuvok pretty much always on the main bridge in these situations (and I'm not sure if DS9 was ever even established to have a secondary OPS anyway). Scotty was usually in engineering (which is also a massive target), but then TOS never really clearly established who the second officer was and seemed to operate more on 'whoever Kirk leaves in charge'.
Indeed. Kira's initial "Major" is necessarily below Sisko's Commander (which would be Lieutenant Colonel in armyspeak). And while Kira's later "Colonel" is ambiguous and can refer to two different army style ranks, one of which is the match of Sisko's naval Captain, we see Kira being given naval style uniform for her mission to Cardassia and her Starfleet rank there is Commander, not Captain.
Which is only to be expected, as there would be no reason for her to skip the rank of Lieutenant Colonel and jump straight to full Colonel. Heck, the Bajoran Militia even appropriately has two different insignia for "Colonel": the one seen in the Circle trilogy, and the one worn by Kira. In retrospect, we can establish the former as full Colonel and the latter as Lieutenant Colonel.
Indeed, a "shadow crew" separated for safety is the antithesis of Starfleet thinking where all the top officers attend the same planetside mission, beaming down all at the same time or flying there in the same shuttlecraft.
There doesn't seem to be a pressing need to believe in a Bajoran "shadow hierarchy" aboard DS9 in more general terms, either. Kira got assigned as Sisko's special liaison apparently as a punishment/banishment: no Bajoran wanted to become a puppet for Starfleet, but additionally the Militia didn't want to have Kira around down on the planet. Other people on the station in Bajoran uniform might have been there just as reluctantly, to eke out a living at a time when the planet was in ruins and chaos.
While Sisko and Starfleet might want to include more Bajorans in the DS9 hierarchy, they might find this impossible to achieve, with no planetside friends. Kira's symbolic position would be all the more important, then, and she would get jobs not obviously suited for her, such as the occasional run aboard the Defiant as more than a mere passenger.
The one time she actually gets to act as part of the chain of command of that vessel, in "Tears of the Prophets", she gets trusted with command decisions not for some symbolic or political value, but because the Starfleet crew by then knows she's the Right Stuff. But that need not be reflected in her official status, as she never repeats that one-off, crisis-prompted command stint.
Timo Saloniemi
Scotty was definitely the main choice early on.
Major Kira and Commander Sisko...basically both the same rank, when we see that Colonel Kira is considered a Captain in Starfleet later.
Any yup, it plays a bit fast and loose...but then Starfleet doesn’t consider itself to be a military. The Bajoran Militia almost certainly is a military. So that might be a bit more strict, especially once DS9 isn’t just a job for getting people out of the way, and becomes de facto important.
Or Sulu. Depending. But "Second Officer" is basically a thing for the last will and testament, an attribute that becomes important with the loss of the First Officer in combat. Who gets to command the ship at various times is dictated by other concerns - fairly junior officers might be a good choice most of the time.
Hmh? No - she wears the three pips of Commander when given a Starfleet uniform. Where would she be "considered a Captain"?
Timo Saloniemi
I misremembered her Cardassian jaunt rank. And remembered her being Captain in later relaunch books but don’t remember her getting a promotion.
Them being the same rank would work anyway, because they are in different chains of command, with Starfleet given seniority over the running of the station. Same reason any old captain can’t rock up and pull rank on Sisko..Ds9 is his command.
In fact, I believe that at least three different insignia were used for inviduals refered to as "Colonel" (Field Colonel Day Kannu, a general's aide but also a political appointee, compared to a SS attache in BTS material; Linaris Holem, an infantry/security unit commander, and Kira Nerys.
IMO, as Lenaris as a solo field commander, then his rank is probably the most senior (senior to a Starfleet Captain, but junior to the most junior Starfleet admiral rank, roughly equivalent to a NATO Commodore or Brigadier), Kira as some who can hold her own command next (between Starfleet Captain and Commander), with Day as the most junior (equivalent to a NATO Lieutenant Colonel).
Might work. But why would Kira skip the rank Day was holding?
And why would an alien rank system have English names for any of the ranks if they don't actually match the British/American rank system to begin with?
(There is no Field Colonel in the show dialogue as such, it's just random unaired nonsense from the script pages...)
Do we have pics where the different insignia of Day and Lenaris would be evident?
Timo Saloniemi
And why would an alien rank system have English names for any of the ranks if they don't actually match the British/American rank system to begin with?
(There is no Field Colonel in the show dialogue as such, it's just random unaired nonsense from the script pages...)
Do we have pics where the different insignia of Day and Lenaris would be evident?
Timo Saloniemi
Best I can do for now.
Lenaris' insignia definately has an extra gold ring around it, so I'm sticking with my previous idea that his grade is the senior of them. Unfortunately this picture isn't good enough to tell whether Day and Kira have the same insignia?
A case could also be made that Day (as a general's XO) is likely to be senior to Kira (a navy captain/colonel's XO)?
Lenaris' insignia definately has an extra gold ring around it, so I'm sticking with my previous idea that his grade is the senior of them. Unfortunately this picture isn't good enough to tell whether Day and Kira have the same insignia?
A case could also be made that Day (as a general's XO) is likely to be senior to Kira (a navy captain/colonel's XO)?
Fully agreed that Lenaris would be the highest type of Colonel here.
Day's exact nature remains debatable. General Krim seems to be insinuating Day doesn't understand military tactics. The young man might well have failed to attend any sort of a formal military training facility during the Occupation, while Krim might in theory have gotten Warrior Caste training before the Cardassians came. Or then Day got into this Militia business from outside the fighting circles altogether, after the Occupation, and his leadership of the boarding forces (in lieu of Krim's actual trained troop leader) is part of a political game of some sort. He's the go-to man for all things Circle, after all, while his boss seems to be a more neutral military pro.
Either way, I doubt we see a straightforward "General and his aide" setup here. The Militia might well be top-heavy with Colonels of all sorts if this doesn't-understand-tactics guy gets to be part of it all. And a junior as far as those Colonels go could get prominence by carrying the right sort of party membership card.
Timo Saloniemi
Day's exact nature remains debatable. General Krim seems to be insinuating Day doesn't understand military tactics. The young man might well have failed to attend any sort of a formal military training facility during the Occupation, while Krim might in theory have gotten Warrior Caste training before the Cardassians came. Or then Day got into this Militia business from outside the fighting circles altogether, after the Occupation, and his leadership of the boarding forces (in lieu of Krim's actual trained troop leader) is part of a political game of some sort. He's the go-to man for all things Circle, after all, while his boss seems to be a more neutral military pro.
Either way, I doubt we see a straightforward "General and his aide" setup here. The Militia might well be top-heavy with Colonels of all sorts if this doesn't-understand-tactics guy gets to be part of it all. And a junior as far as those Colonels go could get prominence by carrying the right sort of party membership card.
Timo Saloniemi
The militia seems to be made up heavily of ex-freedom fighters, their ranks seem at least partly based on those old ramshackle command structures. Kira was second in command in Shakaars? Shakaar didn’t take his ‘captainacy’ straight up, but Kira did, it’s been all of five minutes since the cardassians left. There’s no such thing as career military or officer training really yet. Rank is almost based on fame.
Yes, the Nebula class is what I meant, sorry.
In the Star Wars universe, Major Kira would be very lowly.
Really, I thought TOS was pretty consistent about Scotty being 3rd in command. The rare times someone else was in the big chair could be put down to Scotty being off the ship on leave, or sick, or in a task that required his continuous attention (or IRL James Doohan being unavailable). You could also count the stripes.
The stories told in Star Wars tend to be about more important figures - the emperor, military leaders equivilent to a senior general, senators.
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