Sense8 Christmas Special and Season 2 Release Date Announced

[Jan]

I thought it was okay, but there were some bits that didn't quite track, and it chose an odd place to end. My main issue with the former is

Spoiler

Kala apparently being fine with participating in the full-cluster orgy and then immediately afterward being shocked about being linked with Wolfgang during their respective sexual encounters. I mean, sure, it's different with just the two of them than the whole group, but he was part of that too. It seemed inconsistent.

Spoiler

I can see that. My feeling is that her objection was at least partly based on the fact that Wolfgang was mocking/teasing her her again, as he did when he teased her about looking when he was naked.

Spoiler

Also, why did Sun need to channel Wolfgang and Will for help fighting off the assassins, when she's the best fighter in the bunch? Their help at recognizing the threat and stalling for time made sense, but it seems like letting them take control of her body would downgrade her fighting prowess.

Spoiler

Not sure, but I think it may have been the enclosed space? Sun's expertise is for a more open and weapon-less fight. Wolf, at least would have been better with the chain.

I don't like the new Capheus as much as the old one. As I feared, he doesn't have the same screen-brightening charm and optimism as the original actor. And they overdid the "faces change, deal with it" gag in his first scene. Iron Man 2 got that out of the way in just two lines.

I liked him. The main thing I found disconcerting is that the new actor is so much larger than the original. I think that's going to make it harder for him to play some of the innocence that Ameen was able to pull off. I really like Toby's smile, though. And word is that the cast adores him.

My chief nitpick was that the amount of time passing wasn't made really clear for much of the special. Given that it covered several months, it wasn't always clear when things happened until we got to the holidays. I'm not sure but I don't think that the date of their birthday was mentioned when they had the celebration.

My other nitpick is

Spoiler

that in all that time Kala doesn't seem to have even started using her pharmaceutical knowledge to work on something that could hide Will from Whispers. I know she's been busy getting married and is away from her lab, but for somebody who could make a bomb on the fly from kitchen chemicals, I'd've though something less harmful than heroin could have been tested out by now.

And finally, the question I really want to see addressed in season two is

Spoiler

Why does the Angelica apparition keep trying to get the cluster to kill themselves?!

 

[Christopher]

Not sure, but I think it may have been the enclosed space? Sun's expertise is for a more open and weapon-less fight.

Sun's expertise is for fighting in a ring. That's pretty enclosed. Although you have a point about the weapons.

I liked him. The main thing I found disconcerting is that the new actor is so much larger than the original. I think that's going to make it harder for him to play some of the innocence that Ameen was able to pull off.

I was thinking the same thing, not just because of his size, but because his features are less boyish and more tough-looking.

My chief nitpick was that the amount of time passing wasn't made really clear for much of the special. Given that it covered several months, it wasn't always clear when things happened until we got to the holidays. I'm not sure but I don't think that the date of their birthday was mentioned when they had the celebration.

I think we have to expect it to be kind of unspecific about the passage of time, considering that it's been more than 18 months since season 1 and yet the story was picking up very shortly after it.

My other nitpick is

Spoiler

that in all that time Kala doesn't seem to have even started using her pharmaceutical knowledge to work on something that could hide Will from Whispers. I know she's been busy getting married and is away from her lab, but for somebody who could make a bomb on the fly from kitchen chemicals, I'd've though something less harmful than heroin could have been tested out by now.

Ooh, that's a good point. It would certainly be smarter to go that route than to rely on illegal drugs of uncertain provenance and content. I've never liked the show's embrace of drug use. Or its questionable morality in other ways, like policeman Will seeming to have no problems helping Wolfgang commit murder in season 1. There was a bit here

Spoiler

where Sun evidently broke a guy's neck in a fight -- although later it was said she'd just put the assailants in the hospital, so that's ambiguous -- and Capheus whooped as if it had been a takedown in a movie. Capheus should be more compassionate than that.

And finally, the question I really want to see addressed in season two is

Spoiler

Why does the Angelica apparition keep trying to get the cluster to kill themselves?!

Spoiler

I thought she was only urging Will to do that to protect the rest of the cluster. Am I forgetting something from season 1?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I really enjoyed this episode. I especially enjoyed the birthday sequence as not just a celebration of their collective birthday, but also as a celebration of having their loved ones close by (except Will's father). This emphasized even further the Christmas celebrations.

Aside from the slow boil of Wolfgang's storyline, this is episode felt like a calm before an oncoming storm which will be season 2. A lot of celebrating now because it's about to get ugly again.

Spoiler

My chief nitpick was that the amount of time passing wasn't made really clear for much of the special. Given that it covered several months, it wasn't always clear when things happened until we got to the holidays. I'm not sure but I don't think that the date of their birthday was mentioned when they had the celebration.

It wasn't mentioned in this episode, but their birthday was mentioned during season one as August 8 (I only recall that because saw the whole season yesterday).

 

[Jan]

Ooh, that's a good point. It would certainly be smarter to go that route than to rely on illegal drugs of uncertain provenance and content. I've never liked the show's embrace of drug use. Or its questionable morality in other ways, like policeman Will seeming to have no problems helping Wolfgang commit murder in season 1. There was a bit here

Spoiler

where Sun evidently broke a guy's neck in a fight -- although later it was said she'd just put the assailants in the hospital, so that's ambiguous -- and Capheus whooped as if it had been a takedown in a movie. Capheus should be more compassionate than that.

I don't have any problems with the drug usage in general As for Capheus...

Spoiler

I have to disagree with you there. Remember how many of the Superpower gang that he killed and maimed and showed no remorse at all. Capheus has plenty of toughness to him. When he balked was when Silas Kabaka had the man's hands cut off because he wanted to make a point. Far as I can tell, Capheus is just fine with violence when he or people he cares about are threatened.

Spoiler

I thought she was only urging Will to do that to protect the rest of the cluster. Am I forgetting something from season 1?

I suppose that's true. But Angelica, Jonas and that Icelandic woman who told Riley she was cursed all start urging people to kill themselves every time the situation gets bad. It's just starting to get old for me, that's all.

ETA: I keep forgetting to mention one of my favorite parts - that we see Sun smiling more in this episode.

 

[Christopher]

I don't have any problems with the drug usage in general As for Capheus...

Spoiler

I have to disagree with you there. Remember how many of the Superpower gang that he killed and maimed and showed no remorse at all. Capheus has plenty of toughness to him. When he balked was when Silas Kabaka had the man's hands cut off because he wanted to make a point. Far as I can tell, Capheus is just fine with violence when he or people he cares about are threatened.

But that's just my point. I think it's incongruous for the writers to portray a character as cheering the death of human beings and yet expect us to accept him as a good person instead of the complete psychopath he'd have to be in order to celebrate something like that. I think writers sometimes forget that the death of a real person is not something that can be as easily dismissed as the death of a fictional character -- and to the characters within the story, all the deaths are real. So when the characters just cheer them like they were watching death scenes in movies, that undermines the realism of the story as well as the morality of it. Yes, sometimes killing can be a necessary evil, but it is not something to cheer and whoop at like your team just scored a goal. That's just sick.

 

[Jan]

But that's just my point. I think it's incongruous for the writers to portray a character as cheering the death of human beings and yet expect us to accept him as a good person instead of the complete psychopath he'd have to be in order to celebrate something like that. I think writers sometimes forget that the death of a real person is not something that can be as easily dismissed as the death of a fictional character -- and to the characters within the story, all the deaths are real. So when the characters just cheer them like they were watching death scenes in movies, that undermines the realism of the story as well as the morality of it. Yes, sometimes killing can be a necessary evil, but it is not something to cheer and whoop at like your team just scored a goal. That's just sick.

Well, I'm less familiar with the Ws but I'll be the first to say that I don't think JMS has ever written a character without plenty of shades of grey to them. I live a very privileged life and I'm totally in favor of not regretting the deaths of people who tried to kill me. And Capheus lives in a place where life is violent, brutish and often short. He may not feel entirely responsible, either, given Sun's participation. But yes, I think that Capheus is generally a good person with a healthy survival instinct. He'd never harm anybody who didn't go after him or his, I'm sure.

Come to think of it, Sun sure didn't display any remorse, either.

 

[Christopher]

And that's what I don't like to see. I hate fiction that treats death as something casual and insignificant, and I especially hate fiction that treats it as something to be rejoiced. I see the producers saying in interviews that Sense8 is a show about empathy, but where's the empathy in cheering someone's death? It undermines the message of the show. A story about empathy should not be so violent.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I don't like the new Capheus as much as the old one. As I feared, he doesn't have the same screen-brightening charm and optimism as the original actor.

I was just thinking about this and I don't mind that actually. Capheus just went through a pretty traumatic experience of severely injuring and killing people through Sun's help. And that's not something to easily walk away from.

As for his whooping at Sun's assault on her presumed killers, he's able to see Sun in action from the outside while he appreciated that she was reacting in self-defense.

 

[Jan]

And that's what I don't like to see. I hate fiction that treats death as something casual and insignificant, and I especially hate fiction that treats it as something to be rejoiced. I see the producers saying in interviews that Sense8 is a show about empathy, but where's the empathy in cheering someone's death? It undermines the message of the show. A story about empathy should not be so violent.

I prefer fiction that's at least somewhat realistic and that's about as realistic as anybody's likely to get to Capheus' culture and living conditions. That he's managed to keep any innocence and joy about him at all is kind of a miracle.

I agree with The Grinch Doctor that part of Capheus' elation may have stemmed from being an observer of Sun's kicking butt and not bothering to take names.

 

[Christopher]

I was just thinking about this and I don't mind that actually. Capheus just went through a pretty traumatic experience of severely injuring and killing people through Sun's help. And that's not something to easily walk away from.

But whether it can be rationalized in-story doesn't matter if the actor isn't as satisfying to watch. I miss the original actor.

As for his whooping at Sun's assault on her presumed killers, he's able to see Sun in action from the outside while he appreciated that she was reacting in self-defense.

Then you acknowledge it as a necessary evil. You don't rejoice in it. That's outright psychopathic. The death of any human being is a terrible thing. Even if it's someone doing a bad thing, they're still a person with feelings and dreams and loved ones. I mean, Wolfgang's a killer, but we're supposed to empathize with him (although I hate him and find his parts of the story the most unpleasant and boring). So why does he get empathy but other killers don't? Just because he's part of "us" instead of "them?" That's not empathy. This whole show is supposed to be about erasing the lines between "us" and "them," showing that all kinds of people are just as deserving of love and understanding. That's a beautiful and important message, especially in these times. And I think the Wachowskis' fetishistic love of cinematic violence undermines that message in a very hypocritical way.

I agree with The Grinch Doctor that part of Capheus' elation may have stemmed from being an observer of Sun's kicking butt and not bothering to take names.

Which would be fine if she'd won the fight without killing. Once someone dies, that is not fun anymore. That's what I'm saying -- that including so much death in the story works against its tone and intention.

 

[Jan]

Guess it's just one more thing we'll have to disagree on. As far as I'm concerned, anybody trying to kill or even harm me or mine *will* be stopped, no matter what. And yes, I'll be perfectly happy that they're dead and I'm not.

I wouldn't be too attached to the theory of

And I think the Wachowskis' fetishistic love of cinematic violence undermines that message in a very hypocritical way.

either. There are two writers this year. JMS and Lana. Just sayin'...

 

[Christopher]

Guess it's just one more thing we'll have to disagree on. As far as I'm concerned, anybody trying to kill or even harm me or mine *will* be stopped, no matter what. And yes, I'll be perfectly happy that they're dead and I'm not.

I have too much reverence for human life to ever think that about anyone. I lost my mother when I was seven. I can't see anyone's death as a good thing -- all I can think about is the grief of their survivors. To me, death is never a triumph -- it's purely a loss. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, or in zero-sum conflicts. The best way to resolve a fight is with nobody dying.

There are two writers this year. JMS and Lana. Just sayin'...

I'm talking about the series as a whole, and the Wachowski ouevre as a whole. In general, in what I've seen of it, I think their work features too much gratuitous, fetishized violence at the expense of its more thoughtful elements.

 

[Jan]

I can't see anyone's death as a good thing -- all I can think about is the grief of their survivors. To me, death is never a triumph -- it's purely a loss. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, or in zero-sum conflicts. The best way to resolve a fight is with nobody dying.

Ideally, of course. But I'm a believer in a saying JMS is well known for: Never start a fight but always finish it.

It boils down to this being the story that they've chosen to tell. While it's nice wishing for no violence or death, it would hardly be realistic and it would be far less dramatic. I'm liking the story being told.

 

[Christopher]

Ideally, of course. But I'm a believer in a saying JMS is well known for: Never start a fight but always finish it.

That doesn't mean you cheer when the loser dies, though. Doing what's necessary is one thing, enjoying it is something very different.

It boils down to this being the story that they've chosen to tell. While it's nice wishing for no violence or death, it would hardly be realistic and it would be far less dramatic.

Realism is exactly what I'm endorsing. Real death is not something that most healthy, non-psychopathic people can brush off as casually as fictional characters do. Generally, in real life, people who kill other people for the first time are badly traumatized by it. It's a life-changing thing, a difficult thing to cope with. People who do it more than once can learn to inure themselves to it, but it still takes its toll. Fictional characters can kill on a weekly basis and be completely unaffected by it, because they're imaginary and so are the people they kill. But that's not realistic. Realistically, taking a life should have an impact on the taker. It shouldn't be as casual as winning a video game.

And, realistically, people who die aren't just faceless goons. They often are in stories, but that's a dramatic conceit, an oversimplification to avoid dealing with the ugly reality that even goons have families and friends and hopes and dreams. The death of Redshirt #3 may be a throwaway plot point in a work of fiction, but realistically, every person's death is a central tragedy in someone's life. And I think it's unrealistic to pretend it isn't, to pretend that some deaths are less important than others.

Also, again, how is it realistic for a cop like Will to be so untroubled about helping a crook like Wolfgang commit the murder of his rival? That seems like inconsistent, out-of-character writing. He's a cop. Wolfgang's a murderer. There's a conflict of interest there that keeps getting ignored. I'm not seeing the realism.

I'm liking the story being told.

So am I, for the most part, but liking a story doesn't mean you're not allowed to have criticisms of certain aspects of it. If I didn't like the story, I wouldn't care so much about the things that bother me. As I said, I like what the show has to say about empathy. I like that very, very much. And I think that callousness about violence works against that empathy. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any violence or death in the show -- I'm saying that it should be portrayed as a bad thing, as something to regret and try to minimize, not as something to fetishize and cheer about. Because that's pretty much the opposite of empathy.

 

[Jan]

Also, again, how is it realistic for a cop like Will to be so untroubled about helping a crook like Wolfgang commit the murder of his rival? That seems like inconsistent, out-of-character writing. He's a cop. Wolfgang's a murderer. There's a conflict of interest there that keeps getting ignored. I'm not seeing the realism.

You keep mentioning that. What are you remembering that I'm not?

 

[Christopher]

You keep mentioning that. What are you remembering that I'm not?

I don't remember clearly myself, but in the season finale, wasn't Wolfgang trying to assassinate that gangster/his father/whatever? And there was a part where Will visited him and helped him out. There was also the part where Kala visited him and used her chemistry knowledge to help him build a bomb that killed some henchmen, which I think undermined her character as someone dedicated to helping people. She shouldn't have been so sanguine about killing, so untroubled by the consequences. There should at least have been some soul-searching there, or some remorse afterward.

Basically, I just hate Wolfgang. I hate it that he's part of the cluster, I hate the way he drags down the morality of the others, and I just find him a boring, unpleasant character with a boring, unpleasant storyline. Every time the story focuses on him, I can't wait until it shifts to someone else -- and I hate it that the character I like the least is romantically connected to Kala, who's one of my very favorite characters. She's way too good for him. Unfortunately, apparently Wolfgang is JMS's favorite character and the one he identifies with the most. So I guess I'm stuck with him.

 

[Jan]

I don't remember clearly myself, but in the season finale, wasn't Wolfgang trying to assassinate that gangster/his father/whatever? And there was a part where Will visited him and helped him out. There was also the part where Kala visited him and used her chemistry knowledge to help him build a bomb that killed some henchmen, which I think undermined her character as someone dedicated to helping people. She shouldn't have been so sanguine about killing, so untroubled by the consequences. There should at least have been some soul-searching there, or some remorse afterward.

I don't recall Will there - wasn't he busy rescuing Riley then? As for Kala, she acted to save Wolfgang's life. We saw her horror at Wolf's actions both before and after. As for seeing more - well, this isn't a novel where pages and pages can be spent on angst.

Basically, I just hate Wolfgang. I hate it that he's part of the cluster, I hate the way he drags down the morality of the others, and I just find him a boring, unpleasant character with a boring, unpleasant storyline. Every time the story focuses on him, I can't wait until it shifts to someone else -- and I hate it that the character I like the least is romantically connected to Kala, who's one of my very favorite characters. She's way too good for him. Unfortunately, apparently Wolfgang is JMS's favorite character and the one he identifies with the most. So I guess I'm stuck with him.

Whereas I find it refreshingly realistic that not all of them are 'good' or moral. Why should they be? The only thing they have in common is the moment of their birth.

I find Kala to be namby-pamby, indecisive and at least as immoral as anybody else. Who actually marries somebody she doesn't love?!? And why? Because it made her parents happy? Baloney - wealth and privilege had to be a big part of it. Why hasn't she used her pharmaceutical knowledge to help Will after all these months and instead is content to let him keep using heroin to hide from Whispers?

Let's look at the cluster's alleged morality:
- Nomi has a criminal past and hacks for a living. She's not above receiving stolen equipment and hacks security & law enforcement and steals credit card information.
- Will's a cop who had no issues conning the van rental employee into letting him see the van that transported Angelica without a warrant and also hacked into surveillance footage when following up on Angelica's death. Not to mention taking advantage of Nomi's skills to break into the BPO facility after vandalizing a rental car rented with a stolen credit card number.
- Riley's heavy into drugs and the the drug underground but doesn't seem to go out of her way to hurt anybody.
- Capheus is willing to buy counterfeit or stolen drugs and make deals with the local kingpin. He's killed lots of people and shown no remorse at all
- Kala has lived a lie every day that we've known her, getting engaged to and then marrying somebody for no better reason than to make her own life easier.
- Sun knew about her brother's embezzling for quite some time before going to her father and she's also helped Capheus kill multiple people with no remorse.
- Lito may be the most moral of all. He's never hurt anybody except in defense of a friend that we know of. One could cite his also living a lie but it could also be argued that his personal life should be his own.
- Wolfgang - we've mostly covered him. He killed his dad by ambush, coldly and deliberately. Did his dad deserve killing? Very likely, but there's a difference between premeditation and self-defense. He's into the most casual of sex and very much into revenge.

So none of them are particularly good or moral, are they? They're people thrust together in the most unique circumstances. They all had their own lives going before this happened and we can expect them to want to keep those lives despite suddenly having 7 other people living in their heads.

Wow, that went on longer than I'd planned. But I do love being able to discuss the show.

 

[Christopher]

Whereas I find it refreshingly realistic that not all of them are 'good' or moral. Why should they be? The only thing they have in common is the moment of their birth.

Sure, but I'd be happier with it if Wolfgang were just a thief rather than a cold-blooded killer. And aside from the moral issues, I just don't like the character. As I already said, I find his storyline boring. I find the actor unappealing. I don't like anything about him, and the moral issue is just one facet of it.

I find Kala to be namby-pamby, indecisive and at least as immoral as anybody else.

I think Tina Desai is staggeringly beautiful, so I can't help but like her character. And I think Kala is very sweet.

Who actually marries somebody she doesn't love?!? And why? Because it made her parents happy? Baloney - wealth and privilege had to be a big part of it.

Arranged marriages are a long tradition in India, and I think the show has done an excellent job of portraying the intermingling and tension of Indian and Western traditions. While Kala's marriage to Rajan was not technically an arranged one, Kala is still a product of her culture and subject to its pressures. Really, the idea of getting married strictly because of love between two individuals is a fairly recent notion historically; traditionally, marriage has been about establishing economic, social, or political ties between families and ensuring formal lines of succession and inheritance. Joining through marriage with Rajan's family is good for Kala's family, and Kala loves her family and wants to do her duty by them. Plus there's the fact that Rajan really loves her and she's too kind-hearted to want to hurt him, especially after Rajan's father was murdered.

Why hasn't she used her pharmaceutical knowledge to help Will after all these months and instead is content to let him keep using heroin to hide from Whispers?

I consider that a flaw of the writing, not the character. Maybe that's a thread they're saving for season 2, so they didn't want to address it in the Christmas special.

Let's look at the cluster's alleged morality:
- Nomi has a criminal past and hacks for a living. She's not above receiving stolen equipment and hacks security & law enforcement and steals credit card information.

Please don't misrepresent my position. I've never said anything about wanting these characters to be saints, or to be rigidly legalistic in their behavior. I have made it emphatically clear that my problem is specifically with fiction that trivializes the death of human beings, or that shows supposedly good characters celebrating others' deaths. My issue is with death and killing. That's a completely different matter from stealing credit cards, and I find it inexplicable that you'd consider them equivalent somehow.

Besides, Nomi's actions may be extralegal, but they're hardly immoral. On the contrary, she's a member of an oppressed minority fighting for her rights against an immoral system -- both as a trans woman and as a sensate. Many of these characters are good people forced to extralegal action by the injustice of the system, and there's nothing to condemn about that. I just wish there weren't so much killing involved in it.

 

[Jan]

I think Tina Desai is staggeringly beautiful, so I can't help but like her character. And I think Kala is very sweet.

I don't have your hormonal bias so I just find her insipid.

... especially after Rajan's father was murdered.

Attacked. He didn't die.

Please don't misrepresent my position.

What about your position? I neither addressed it nor misrepresented it. I was following a train of conversation. Please don't read things that aren't there.

 

[Christopher]

What about your position? I neither addressed it nor misrepresented it. I was following a train of conversation. Please don't read things that aren't there.

That's what you did. I was talking very specifically about death and the celebration thereof, and you somehow drifted into a conversation about breaking any kind of law whatsoever. That's a totally different subject from what I'm talking about.