I'd be down for that. Be interesting to explore.
Section 31: I hope it still happens.
- Thread starter FredH
- Start date
Ooh! Cool idea!
Except we also saw it in the 22nd century...
I'm referring more to how long it would presumably take to flush the organisation's existence from memory - given the number of officers who would have interacted with or had knowledge of Section 31. Clearly they were successful, as by the time DS9 rolled around, neither Bashir or SIsko had even heard of it.
Though I agree they could do as you suggest - publicly dismantle it but secretly repurpose it / go deeper underground.
Well now you've gone and complicated it, haven't you?
More clandestine. Not that it didn't exist
That's a fair point but I think it grossly overestimates how much people will remember. If they are publicly disgraced and then move on, their importance fades from memory. Rogue officers, dealt with, footnoted in a report no one will read.
I didn't write Enterprise...
No one but Reed seemed to know about it, from what I recall.
Broad assumption for the small part they played. It's not like I would expect the organization to remain the same.
Assumption based on that was the situation in the only other show it had appeared on. The only reason to doubt te assumption now is to fit it into Discovery's unfortunate retcon.
Nothing unfortunate about it.
Agree to just disagree so so hard...
Go for it.
It’s not that hard to change history - I have been alive for over thirty years, and I’ve seen even just casual misconceptions about events I’ve lived through take hold in the public consciousness. Like, look at pandemic related things - people want to push the “We came together” narrative, but that’s just NOT the truth.
So going from operating openly to unknown entirely in a hundred years? Yeah, I buy that. Hell, I could see 31 activities being rebranded as things done by Starfleet Intelligence/rogue agents, and who would argue?
So going from operating openly to unknown entirely in a hundred years? Yeah, I buy that. Hell, I could see 31 activities being rebranded as things done by Starfleet Intelligence/rogue agents, and who would argue?
And honestly even in the 24th century, there were plenty of indications that high ranking members of the Federation government and Starfleet still new and worked with Section 31 (from the DS9 series run).
There were the members of the Federation council who were blocking Dr Bashir's request for earlier medical information about Odo when he was working on a cure for the virus infecting and killing the founders; and Admiral Ross was working hand in hand with them to remove a troublesome Romulan they felt was working against federation interests during the Dominion War.
For all we know Sloane was lying when he claimed that section 31 was operating outside the Federation government autonomously. What better way to have complete plausible deniability if any of your operatives are caught? Sort of like the 'impossible Mission Force' (from that TV series). There was a group that was completely sponsored, funded and run by the U.S. government; yet if any of them were there ever caught said U.S. government would disavow all knowledge of their actions, and the operatives would never divulge they were working for the U.S. government.
There were the members of the Federation council who were blocking Dr Bashir's request for earlier medical information about Odo when he was working on a cure for the virus infecting and killing the founders; and Admiral Ross was working hand in hand with them to remove a troublesome Romulan they felt was working against federation interests during the Dominion War.
For all we know Sloane was lying when he claimed that section 31 was operating outside the Federation government autonomously. What better way to have complete plausible deniability if any of your operatives are caught? Sort of like the 'impossible Mission Force' (from that TV series). There was a group that was completely sponsored, funded and run by the U.S. government; yet if any of them were there ever caught said U.S. government would disavow all knowledge of their actions, and the operatives would never divulge they were working for the U.S. government.
I think that is an interesting take and similar to my one hope for the S31 show: that it would be about Mirror Georgiou joining S31 and realizing, based on her interactions with the Federation, that S31 was wrong and trying to change/improve it from the inside. But I think the producers are too stuck on their belief that super, super dark anti-heroes wearing black leather, killing every second person in sight, and insulting everyone else is the height of "cool" and "what the franchise needs". I fear they will pursue this action-y/torture-porn approach forever as long as it is their chance to have Michelle Yeoh in a long running series.
Based upon what? The whole point of Georgiou's last arc was about her recognizing that she could change and some of her stances, including her hostility towards everyone, was wrong. There's not much indication this is the producers view at all.
Yeah except that's not really the path that Georgiou was sent on. The whole point of the Guardian testing her was 1) to make sure Georgiou had learned that there was a different way other than being a killing machine and 2) make sure that she wouldn't be a tyrant wherever he chose to send her. Georgiou spent her time in the MU actively trying not to kill and only killed when left with no other alternative. Georgiou also saved Saru, an action which nto only allowed Saru to save the Kelpien's on Discovery but also as the Guardian stated would have the flow on a effect of saving thousands of others. Georgiou is very much a changed person at the end of 'Terra Firma pt 2' thanks to her time with the Discovery crew and her second jaunt to the MU.
Based upon what? The whole point of Georgiou's last arc was about her recognizing that she could change and some of her stances, including her hostility towards everyone, was wrong. There's not much indication this is the producers view at all.
Except that my, admittedly unnuanced, summary of "the producers' ideas" is how Mirror Georgiou is portrayed up until the last episodes. Sure, there are moments where she is almost kind to Michael, but to most everyone else she is mean, condescending, and she is definitely willing to kill at a drop of a hat. To me, Terra Firma p1/p2 feels like a last second retcon. An attempt by the writers to say "see, Georgiou did make great strides in changing and improving her understanding during her time in the Prime Universe". But, like a lot of what the Discovery writers/producers attempt for these characters in terms of emotional arcs and 'earning' things, it is rushed and paper thin. [I am blanking on a good example right now, but there are many attempted character arcs in Discovery where the characters arrive at their end point seemingly by writer fiat - "they 'evolved' because we say so". The thought to have said character development is there, but the season-long story arcs and the divvying up of writing assignments between the writing staff just don't allow enough development time, consistent trajectory, or sufficient payoff. Again, in my opinion.] As soon as Georgiou is gone, the whole senior staff has a grand sendoff where she is treated like a hero and great friend to all, where she had previously been mean, murderous, disdainful, and hateful.
Oh, I agree that it was a test to see if she was "better", but as I say in response to fireproof78 above, her development was rushed, last minute, and paper thin. The idea of redemption arc for Georgiou is a strong one, it just wasn't executed in the show. It seemed like The Powers That Be didn't even know what they wanted Georgiou to do in season 3 until these two farewell episodes. Reminds me of Airiam in season 2 - "oh, our plan is to kill her off, but we need to do it in a meaningful/impactful way. But we didn't provide any connection to this character before, so I guess we need to shove all this in in the last minute. Let's make her besties with some of our main characters, and finally give her a tragic backstory. That should do it." And both of these remind me of the frustrating moment from Voyager when Chakotay 'realizes' something is wrong in "Dark Frontier" when Janeway fiddles with her combadge - which she never does before or after that moment. It's a tell, not show moment, and is built on no foundation - symptomatic of a writer's room that can't or won't devote enough development time to the stories they are trying to tell - much like Airiam's death, and Georgiou's "redemption".
I will respectfully disagree on Georgiou specifically. Do I think Discovery has always gotten development right? No. But, Georgiou is a place where I think they got better. Season 1 she wasn't quite a full character as much as a symbol for Burnham's guilt. Season 2 she was like what you described but 3 is where we see the cracks in the veneer of the anger and hate. Despite herself there is a bond with a crew that has been wounded and yanked out of their reality, like hers.
I'm not saying it is perfectly done but it is there. And the emotional beats land very well. Yes, even the sendoff at the end. Not because she was a friend but because she was a part of this wounded crew. And, having been in intensely emotional situations with people I don't like or have a strong disdain for I'll still say that parting of ways was emotional. So, it works for me. Mileage will vary.
Regardless, I don't think Section 31 will be all the ridiculous stereotypes thrown out initially, certainly not "torture porn" or "murdering everyone" as insisted upon. The character of Georgiou has demonstrated excellent growth and I would be surprised if that did not inform the approach going forward.
Agreed, I think they did try, in parts, to make improvements in Georgiou's character. It just didn't work enough for me. I should probably do a rewatch now that I know the whole arc (I did a rewatch of PIC and LDS, but just didn't do DIS S3 yet).
I hope they take a more "mature" (my description) approach to S31 if they ever actually put it into production. So far in DIS S2, their approach was very "network" cool - like silver catsuits, or decon gel scenes, eyeball gouging, or having a top secret intel organization go around with black ships, black leather uniforms, and their own special combages to openly tell everyone who they are - things that "suits" think are cool or edgy, but come out as tired or silly given any perspective. I just don't know if they can get away from it.
I think back to Picard's torture in "Chain of Command" and how it feels so different and more meaningful from "Choose your Pain" or a lot of the individual moments in Tyler's arc in DIS. I thought Tyler's story was good in concept (though it was undercut by having him be Voq, who didn't really have any more story once he became Tyler). The presentation was not for me and the ending Tyler's arc (of season 1 and the little it got in season 2) wasn't very good. I think he was another character (in season 2 at least) where the production liked the actor but didn't know what to do with the character.
