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Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

A Section 31 series. Yay or nay?

  • Yay, a Section 31 series!

    Votes: 80 40.0%
  • Nay, give us anything else instead!

    Votes: 120 60.0%

  • Total voters
    200
I don't know? Ask the seven million real world Jew who were tortured and murdered, then saw many of their torturers get away scot-free to a new life in America...
In our world we know how people were raised, what moral training they received, how they developed. I know our worlds morality. I know those standards, and agree with you on how appalling that is.

We have not clue in the Mirror Universe. To apply that standard without that knowledge feels like judge, jury, and executioner, to me.
 
In our world we know how people were raised, what moral training they received, how they developed.

No, you don't. Because during that time in history, Europe was rife with anti-semitism. Jews were seen as the lesser. Why should we have held anyone accountable based on them treating Jewish people the way they largely saw Jewish people.

They were just doing what came naturally. :shrug:

Why should I be punished for beating on children when that is the world I grew up in?
 
No, you don't. Because during that time in history, Europe was rife with anti-semitism. Jews were seen as the lesser. Why should we have held anyone accountable based on them treating Jewish people the way they largely saw Jewish people.

They were just doing what came naturally. :shrug:
The children of the Enlightenment would know of the trend towards natural rights and laws, that people had a measure of right accorded to them by their creators.

That was the moral standard. We know what it was. We know how people were educated then.
 
Anyone ever introduce you to MAGA?
Well, now we've strayed far afield of my initial point so in the interest of avoiding shutting this thread down I'll say yes, I'm aware of MAGA as well as very ethical and moral codes that people fail to live up to. Hell, in my profession, the code of ethics prohibits sexual relationships with current or past clients (within the last 5 years) and yet that's the most frequent violation!
 
Well, now we've strayed far afield of my initial point so in the interest of avoiding shutting this thread down I'll say yes, I'm aware of MAGA as well as very ethical and moral codes that people fail to live up to. Hell, in my profession, the code of ethics prohibits sexual relationships with current or past clients (within the last 5 years) and yet that's the most frequent violation!

Wrong is wrong, and deserves to be punished. The Federation should've held onto Georgiou in some kind of holding facility until they could figure out a way to give her back.

Not turn her into an action hero.
 
What do you mean, "she didn't know better"? She grew up in a world that, by our standards, was morally reprehensive, but that doesn't mean that all values were non-existent. The Halkans clearly had values (they were ready to die for them), those who fought the Empire clearly had values. There were still choices to make and she, at least in regards to the Talosians, choose genocide.

She had choices, and choose the worst, time and again.
BillJ
If its been addressed already I apologize.

She grew up in a society whose value was cruelty. Its was one that has existed for hundreds of years, and one she I born into. Its one that spans star systems. Thus is would be far more difficult to experience first hand and in depth the value systems of others. You use examples of Halkans and Talismans, but those groups aren't part of her society. We have no idea how much direct in person contact she has that would enable a person to learn. Typically the longer time you spend with a group, especially away from your own society the easier it is to then see the suffering of other groups.

Magnify that by centuries, by societies that are different being light years away, and being different species.

So using human comparisons aren't going to pass mustard.

Now even saying that what she did is monstrous to a degree that I can't even comprehend. Certainly in her presence I would like her dead. Just like I would want to kill Hitler (or any number of other heinous individuals). But once she comes to our universe, she does learn to be different. That doesn't make anything she did disappear it doesn't wash away her actions. But it does show that environmental aspects could impact even someone who we see as so far past the point of being "human".

One thing I liked about Discovery, is even with this change we are never put in the position where we see her as someone who is good.

With the trailer, it's actually nice that they show she was monstrous. They don't hide that (especially from new viewers). And clearly we are going to see some small aspects of her life in the mirror universe. But with a TV movie I am not expected a ton of material here. Just enough to show that she wasn't born a monster, but that she was raised in an environment to become a monster. Now what is less clear is if we will see any footage showing her become aware of her own monstrous ways, and that there are better choices one can make. I don't know if they will show any of that previously that happened.

Now for the rest of the trailer. Yeah it's a big mess. Probably the worst trailer for a Trek production I've seen.

Though there is one other nice thing about the teaser. It really doesn't show much of what the story actually is. But what is shown is a mess.....Really the only part I liked that was shown, was showing yeah she's a monster. And the brief shots showing we see how she could become a monster. The rest. Flush it down the toilet.....
 
I guess I'm just wrong in thinking that this is incredibly disrespectful to people who have actually suffered atrocities at the hands of terrible individuals, in the real world. Then see them skate away to new lives.

I humbly withdraw all complaints about Georgiou.
 
Say you're sorry for what you did, pledge your allegiance to the Federation, and all is forgiven.

Sound familiar?
 
You're not wrong. But 1) it's a fictional character and b) I can only speak for myself here, but I loved Xena and Angel because it was interesting for me to see characters try to make up for things that cannot (by definition) be made up for. It made me feel a tiny bit better about my own fuckups.

Personally, I just think there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed. Rehabilitating Hitler is one of them. We're a world that already has real problems with people not being held accountable for their actions.
 
You're not wrong. But 1) it's a fictional character and b) I can only speak for myself here, but I loved Xena and Angel because it was interesting for me to see characters try to make up for things that cannot (by definition) be made up for. It made me feel a tiny bit better about my own fuckups.
Agreed. I think fiction should be the opportunity to safely explore these ideas. If people are convinced that humanity can grow and evolve the way Trek espouses, why not show the worst of our natures being changed. We see it with Quark, we see it with Garak, we see it with Kor, we see it Shran.

Evolution requires acknowledge of our worst aspects and choosing to move forward. "The instinct can be fought. We are killers, but we're not going to kill today."
 
Evolution requires acknowledge of our worst aspects and choosing to move forward. "The instinct can be fought. We are killers, but we're not going to kill today."

It shouldn't mean allowing those worst aspects to escape their crimes.
 
It shouldn't mean allowing those worst aspects to escape their crimes.
Agree to disagree at this point.

Her crimes were not committed under Prime Universe's jurisdiction and unless a universal morality is demonstrated (Q? Organians?) then the only appropriate task is to send her back. Except, she was judged by the Guardian of Forever. Not sure if that counts.
 
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