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Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

A Section 31 series. Yay or nay?

  • Yay, a Section 31 series!

    Votes: 80 40.0%
  • Nay, give us anything else instead!

    Votes: 120 60.0%

  • Total voters
    200
I didn't really care for Section 31 in the first place, and the trailer makes me hate the concept even more.

There was absolutely nothing shown on DSC that would remotely redeem the irredeemable genocidal Kelpian eater, instead we were supposed to find her cool because she makes totally unfunny snarky remarks and because "evil is the new cool". It's one of the big issues I can't forgive DSC for.

Nothing wrong with aiming at new audiences with new approaches. But it's buying the cat in a bag. If people attracted to Star Trek due to Section 31 look into the franchise beyond this movie, they will be disappointed, because the other shows are nothing like that.
 
I didn't really care for Section 31 in the first place, and the trailer makes me hate the concept even more.

There was absolutely nothing shown on DSC that would remotely redeem the irredeemable genocidal Kelpian eater, instead we were supposed to find her cool because she makes totally unfunny snarky remarks and because "evil is the new cool". It's one of the big issues I can't forgive DSC for.

Nothing wrong with aiming at new audiences with new approaches. But it's buying the cat in a bag. If people attracted to Star Trek due to Section 31 look into the franchise beyond this movie, they will be disappointed, because the other shows are nothing like that.
Also this might be someone's first jump into new Trek and hate it. Putting them off ever trying SNW or Discovery.

The idea that doing a different kind of Trek is automatically a good thing because it definitely brings new fans is flawed.
 
Boy can we just talk about how wrong you are. Dropping the Trek title was just a marketing tool to get people who normally who would avoid Trek just because of the name (and there are people who have never watched Trek before that associate the name with nerds in a basement. Remove the title and hell they might actually look at the trailers or check out the first episode.

And they never advertised it as anti-Trek. Period. They used its not your father's Trek. You do realize with the average age of a for a trek viewer at that time, they are talking about people who watched Trek back in early 80's.

And lets be very clear here, ENT was different from the TOS films and the early stages of TNG.

Just because its still Trek doesn't mean that it can't have differences then what come before during that period (not to mention even the period of late TNG - VOY).

Crew with almost no experience at all - Entirely new to Trek.

Crew where starting out everything is new and exciting - Seeing a Class M Planet, Camping on a planet, Visiting a comet, mingling with an less developed culture for the first time - All of those things were presented with importance. No Trek had done that.

Crew having real fear about what they are doing, Crew with doubts about their mission, Crew having doubts about their ability - Sorry thats all new.

Showing skin, and not being afraid to showcase both sexes - yeah sorry no Trek has done that.

Showing the crew turn tale and run at their first alien encounter - Yeah just another example of something very new to Trek.

Having more casual humor, more casual dialogue - Yeah something that wasn't done since TOS tv days.

And you can keep going. Now a lot of this seem to go by the wayside before in by before the end of the season. But lets be very clear here the early part of Enterprise did present Trek in a different manner then most of the rest of Trek did.

You may have disliked it, or liked it but it absolutely did presented Trek in a different light when it started compared to the rest of Trek at that point. You might have expected larger or more structural changes, but they didn't make statement about that.

Yeah, I stand by what I wrote. They wanted to advertise the show as the ‘non-Star Trek’ Star Trek, but they had absolutely no idea how to actually do that because by that time they were all out of original ideas (nor did UPN give them the freedom to do that. UPN just wanted more of the same because they didn’t like taking risks and actually allowing them to create something new.)
 
One of DS9's biggest mistakes was to turn Dukat into an irredeemable monster and then to pair him up with Kira in that weird odd couple way.
When in your opinion did they "turn" him into an irredeemable monster?

The Dukat/Kira story pairing was interesting (to me) because for a very short time she tries to see the best in him. Even monsters have their moments. For the most part their pairing is him not being able to understand why she doesn't like him, and her telling him in no uncertain terms exactly why she doesn't like him.
 
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The comparison of Dukat and Georgiou is interesting.

Obviously DS9 had way, way more time to establish Dukat, but his motivations felt clearer from almost the getgo. He was a narcissist who wanted to be loved, and sincerely saw himself as the hero of his own story.

For MU Georgiou, her motivation is what exactly? I get the vague idea that the Terran Empire is so brutal that the only way to survive is to be the best at being the most ruthless - that you have to put on layer over layer of armor. But she actually likes being a bad bitch too, so it's not just a facade. She seems to veer widely between just being a murderhobo for shits and giggles to having some hint of moral complexity which is never quite articulated.
 
Kira: “It's never too late. The worst of us can be redeemed.”

Nowhere has she been forgiven for what she’s done. But it’s fascinating to see her grow and change from what she was. There’s so many story possibilities there. It’s what I hoped they were exploring with Mirror Lorca before he turned into a radio serial villain.
Exactly. Sorry I missed this earlier.

Georgiou's growth is small but what else would you expect? She was raised to be in control of an empire only for the control to be ripped away. The regret of her inability to make good changes when the Guardian sends her back.

She discovered that she can change but that change is difficult.
 
Like Sisko said, Dukat was REALLY evil.
Section 31 could be good if it works like a secret service with special agents story, maybe similar to X Files.
 
I think one issue is people see Section 31 being something were members would feel like professionals who are cynical and jaded. Have learned to trust nobody. The idea of spies being hip and cool sort of goes against the idea of what people would see as authentic spies. If someone was cool it would be in that Garak way were you know the person your dealing with, no matter how charming their personality is, is very much a killer on the inside who would stab you in the back without even thinking about it, even if they like you, because it was important to the mission.
 
Are you familiar with the work of TOS and TNG costumer William Ware Theiss?
Sorry because I was posting in a hurry.

Yes TOS and season 1 of TNG showcased guest stars (typically aliens) in revealing clothing.

I forgot the qualifier. Everything I am talking about in that post is about the crew of the ship. But while alien races who shown to be clothed in far more revealing outfits that isn't how the crew was presented, certainly the times they weren't it wasn't typically their choice.

Now for example Tasha outfit when she seduces Data is one of the more revealing pieces of clothing that the crew choose to put on (say versus Riker's outfit he wore in Angel one to fit into the society). Or how the costume Apollo put Caroline in versus her own clothes in Who Mourns for Adonais. Or how the Mirror Universe uniform for Uhura was showed more skin their the normal universe did.

Now it's true that ENT doesn't have aliens in those types of clothing. But ENT does showcase its crew revealing more skin. And what is shown is more then then what was shown even for the revealing outfits of TOS and 1st season TNG.

From Archer naked in the shower. Has Trek ever showed a shower this visually revealing before? It shows more then the sonic shower did or examples of Nellie or Troi and Riker bathing. Thats an example of showing skin that I loved. Its legitimate. And they didn't use camera angles to hide, instead using water to hide aspects so you see a flesh blur.

You have Trip and T'Pol getting intimate, and it shows more skin then previous Trek has ever showed for character initiating a sexual relation. Don't have any issue with this.

You have Trip running around the ship for 1/3 of an episode in his underwear. Do we see that in any previous version of Trek? Nope sorry we don't. We have scenes with tanks, Scenes with men who are not wearing tops, but underware? Nope. And they treated it just like the situation he was supposed to be in, And it was filmed like how it would be filmed if he was fully clothed.

Then the parts I didn't like, but still also prove my point. We have the first Decon chamber scene with the rubbing gel over each others body and the close up lingering shots to highlight that.....Uggghhh but it is different and more sexually charged than what Trek had previously done. Now the 2nd Decon scene later in that season with Malcolm, Hoshi, and T'Pol still putting gel on each other, but not shot in any way to be intimate. That scene didn't bother me. That scene for me worked. The other was shot in a way completely different than how Trek shot scenes.

The scene were Hoshi loses her top and is topless while going through the ducks of the Enterprise and is seen by Malcom in that state. Ugghhhh. Has that approach ever been done in Trek before....the answer is no. The closest I can remember is the Ferengi beaming away the Troi's clothing. But that was something done against their will, nor do we see them exposed to the crew.

How about Crew Topless? How many of the cast of Enterprise are shown in topless state. Archer, Trip, T'Pol, Reed, and Mayweather. The bulk of the cast. Can you say the same of any other Trek.

And of course, most of Trek has sexualized women vastly more than they do men. And while this is also true of ENT thanks to T'Pol's outfit. Their appearances outside of their uniform is probably the most balanced Trek has ever been, up to that point.

Again just pointing out how ENT did portray the characters on the Enterprise different then how they crews are presented in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT.
 
To me I don't see anything wrong with Trek being cool and or sexy. But i still think it needs to be done in the recognizable parameters of a Star Trek show. Especially if your going to keep pretending it is in the Prime universe and for sure a prequel. SNW does this. SNW feels both old and new. Pike,Spock,Chapel and T'Pring were all made to look sexy as heck the past 2 seasons and I am sure I am missing other examples. Yet the show does enough still to feel very much like Star Trek.
 
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To me I don't see anything wrong with Trek being cool and or sexy. But i still think it needs to be done in the recognizable parameters of a Star Trek show. Especially if your going to keep pretending it is in the Prime universe and for sure a prequel. SNW does this. SNW feels both old and new. Pike,Spock,Chapel and T'Pring were all made to look sexy as heck the past 2 seasons and I am sure I am missing other examples. Yet the show does enough still to feel very much like Star Trek.
Define the parameters of Star Trek in order to be recognized.
 
Define the parameters of Star Trek in order to be recognized.

Starfleet tech and architecture that feels consistent to some degree. Advances in tech should look like it is evolution of previous designs while Mostly positive look at the future. Semi-intelligent or thoughtful. It doesn't have to be the West Wing but I also don't want to be CW either.
 
Starfleet tech and architecture that feels consistent to some degree. Advances in tech should look like it is evolution of previous designs while Mostly positive look at the future. Semi-intelligent or thoughtful. It doesn't have to be the West Wing but I also don't want to be CW either.
It's not a Starfleet show so probably not going to see that.

Semi-intelligent? Well, we don't know. I've seen some semi-intelligent kid's shows too. So, that seems like a nebulous categorization.

Positive look at the future? Ok, well I imagine we'll get some of that. Just not everything is positive.

Not sure what CW did to deserve the malignment.
 
Starfleet tech and architecture that feels consistent to some degree. Advances in tech should look like it is evolution of previous designs while Mostly positive look at the future. Semi-intelligent or thoughtful. It doesn't have to be the West Wing but I also don't want to be CW either.
Haven’t seen enough of S31 to even know if it meets those. CW can do semi intelligent and thoughtful. I really liked the last few seasons of Riverdale which brimmed with social commentary.
 
CW does I admit sometimes get unfair knocks but I think at this point it has become a sort of shorthand description of badly made tv shows trying to be hip and cool to win over young people and not offering much substance.
 
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