Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Turbo]

The "redemption" of Mirror Georgiou has left a sour taste in my mouth since they started playing with it. I think it is part of what has soured me on CBS Trek, as a whole.

Kira: “It's never too late. The worst of us can be redeemed.”

Nowhere has she been forgiven for what she’s done. But it’s fascinating to see her grow and change from what she was. There’s so many story possibilities there. It’s what I hoped they were exploring with Mirror Lorca before he turned into a radio serial villain.

 

[Frontis]

Actually I would be more interested in a movie about the Maquis.

 

[BillJ]

Kira: “It's never too late. The worst of us can be redeemed.”

Nowhere has she been forgiven for what she’s done. But it’s fascinating to see her grow and change from what she was. There’s so many story possibilities there. It’s what I hoped they were exploring with Mirror Lorca before he turned into a radio serial villain.

There are people who are simply beyond redemption. We have tons of real world examples. The more interesting thing Discovery/Section 31 could have done was "how do you deal with that type of person in an enlightened society?"

 

[Jayson1]

Actually I would be more interested in a movie about the Maquis.

I think I would be more interested in those Maquis still alive help rebuild those colony worlds that were destroyed by the Dominion. Meanwhile they run into dangers from Carddisans also looking for places to live after the destruction they faced during the war as well. You would have a Starfleet presence in the era to try and keep the peace and make sure another war doesn't break out.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm kinda curious what a Trekkie's ideal trailer would be. Long spaceship shots, clips of engineers reeling off technical specifications as music swells to a big warp jump finale?

Don't forget faithfully recreated sets that look like they were genuinely made in the 90s or earlier.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'm kinda curious what a Trekkie's ideal trailer would be.

For Section 31? I dunno, something that played up the spy thriller side, maybe it could bring up the fact that they're in moral opposition to the culture they're working to protect. I want some hint that it's going to tackle anything about Section 31 as an organisation and it's not just about Georgiou's backstory and a bunch of misfits doing a caper and looking cool.

 

[Jayson1]

My ideal Trailer would be something like this. Commander Garret comes into a room with some Starfleet Admiral. He says something like "Commander Garret, I am going to be sending you on a mission that is of vital Federation importance. It's top secret and you will get your hands dirty". "Garret is like. "Sounds unethical. "Then we see Georgiou for the first time in the room and she says something like 'So your first Rodeo then" Cut to a action scene. Cut to flashback scene to young Gergiou killing some guy who was the previous ruler of the Terran Empire." Cut back to one of the new characters explaining to Garret what Section 31 is. Cut to Georgiu doing something sexy but also badass in a action scene kind of way. Cut to a joke from a comic relief scene from the comic relief character. Cut to a shot of a traditional Federation Starship, even if we don't know it's role in the movie. Then cut to one final cool line from Gergiou to Garrett.

 

[fireproof78]

The "redemption" of Mirror Georgiou has left a sour taste in my mouth since they started playing with it. I think it is part of what has soured me on CBS Trek, as a whole.

I try to get this but then I see characters like Garak, Dukat, and Kor praised (not you specifically) and wonder why the growth of a character is so bad?

Humans are capable of great evil, with profoundly destructive results. I think showing someone capable of change speaks to what Trek is about, to my mind.

 

[The + Kid]

You guys are 100% correct. But my point was that the show was *advertised* as anti-Star Trek, as in “the only way we’re going to get viewers is to downplay the whole ‘Star Trek’ aspect of our show” (which, as you pointed out, they did not in fact do other than removing ‘Star Trek’ from the title.) To which I then have to ask: why make a Star Trek show at all if you want your audience to not think it’s Star Trek?

In the case of this Section 31 idea, Section 31 is not about a ship and its captain and its crew going on a five year mission to seek out new life and new civilizations. That's not what it's about.

If we want to say that Star Trek can only be about that one thing, then so be it. Then the only thing Star Trek can be is a show about a ship and its captain and its crew going on a five year mission to seek out new life and new civilizations.

If we want to say that Star Trek can be more than that though, then we have to allow for other things.

We should have a show that's the traditional Star Trek show. Ship, captain, crew. Because that will always work, you just have to strike the right balance. And we should have Star Trek shows that do other things than that, because obviously not everyone loves the traditional Star Trek show. If they did, then it would be as big as something like Star Wars.

Of course, Section 31 is not going to be a show anyway, unless this streaming movie goes over big. I kind of doubt it will, but we'll see.

I'm kinda curious what a Trekkie's ideal trailer would be. Long spaceship shots, clips of engineers reeling off technical specifications as music swells to a big warp jump finale?

I guess an ideal teaser trailer for me would involve a David Cronenberg Doctor Kovich-type character as the director of Section 31. And the teaser would just be him looking at the camera for a beat...

...fade to black, and then the Star Trek: Section 31 title, fade to black.

I'm not very creative.

 

[Jayson1]

I try to get this but then I see characters like Garak, Dukat, and Kor praised (not you specifically) and wonder why the growth of a character is so bad?

Humans are capable of great evil, with profoundly destructive results. I think showing someone capable of change speaks to what Trek is about, to my mind.

Mostly because of bad writing. If Georgiou had Ron Moore or Rene Echevarria writing for her I am betting people would like the character, much better.

 

[fireproof78]

Mostly because of bad writing. If Georgiou had Ron Moore or Rene Echevarria writing for her I am betting people would like the character, much better.

I doubt it. The descriptor, "Space Hitler" the level of willingness to actually explore humanity on a basic level.

Humanity needs to grow, to reach for the stars, and greater ambitions, yet we constantly shade at those with horrible pasts who knew no other way.

I think of Garak, and how he could justify anything. Somehow, I imagine his murderous past would be ignored in favor of him being a lead.

It's ...disappointing.

 

[Jayson1]

But people were calling Dukat Space Hitler. I mean I am not sure they put the space part in it but people for sure thought of him as a Hitler like character.

 

[fireproof78]

But people were calling Dukat Space Hitler. I mean I am not sure they put the space part in it but people for sure thought of him as a Hitler like character.

Yes, but he never showed that change of heart like Georgiou did. It is definitely an interesting comparison.

 

[Tosk]

Mostly because of bad writing. If Georgiou had Ron Moore or Rene Echevarria writing for her I am betting people would like the character, much better.

Yes. Georgiou's turn was poorly handled. She seemed to go evil to slightly less evil to loved for some reason that is not made really clear. A deficiency of DSC's structure and weak writing overall.

 

[Daedalus]

My ideal Trailer would be something like this. Commander Garret comes into a room with some Starfleet Admiral. He says something like "Commander Garret, I am going to be sending you on a mission that is of vital Federation importance. It's top secret and you will get your hands dirty". "Garret is like. "Sounds unethical. "Then we see Georgiou for the first time in the room and she says something like 'So your first Rodeo then" Cut to a action scene. Cut to flashback scene to young Gergiou killing some guy who was the previous ruler of the Terran Empire." Cut back to one of the new characters explaining to Garret what Section 31 is. Cut to Georgiu doing something sexy but also badass in a action scene kind of way. Cut to a joke from a comic relief scene from the comic relief character. Cut to a shot of a traditional Federation Starship, even if we don't know it's role in the movie. Then cut to one final cool line from Gergiou to Garrett.

The full trailer will be something like this, but I'd add the Chameloid dude being shown to do his shape-shifting thing. Not Borg guy will be punching someone as well. Gotta get a punch in.

 

[JRoss]

There are people who are simply beyond redemption. We have tons of real world examples. The more interesting thing Discovery/Section 31 could have done was "how do you deal with that type of person in an enlightened society?"

Why, you send them on spy missions and call them a "bad bitch" because they're just so fabulous.

 

[mswood]

You guys are 100% correct. But my point was that the show was *advertised* as anti-Star Trek, as in “the only way we’re going to get viewers is to downplay the whole ‘Star Trek’ aspect of our show” (which, as you pointed out, they did not in fact do other than removing ‘Star Trek’ from the title.) To which I then have to ask: why make a Star Trek show at all if you want your audience to not think it’s Star Trek?

Boy can we just talk about how wrong you are. Dropping the Trek title was just a marketing tool to get people who normally who would avoid Trek just because of the name (and there are people who have never watched Trek before that associate the name with nerds in a basement. Remove the title and hell they might actually look at the trailers or check out the first episode.

And they never advertised it as anti-Trek. Period. They used its not your father's Trek. You do realize with the average age of a for a trek viewer at that time, they are talking about people who watched Trek back in early 80's.

And lets be very clear here, ENT was different from the TOS films and the early stages of TNG.

Just because its still Trek doesn't mean that it can't have differences then what come before during that period (not to mention even the period of late TNG - VOY).

Crew with almost no experience at all - Entirely new to Trek.

Crew where starting out everything is new and exciting - Seeing a Class M Planet, Camping on a planet, Visiting a comet, mingling with an less developed culture for the first time - All of those things were presented with importance. No Trek had done that.

Crew having real fear about what they are doing, Crew with doubts about their mission, Crew having doubts about their ability - Sorry thats all new.

Showing skin, and not being afraid to showcase both sexes - yeah sorry no Trek has done that.

Showing the crew turn tale and run at their first alien encounter - Yeah just another example of something very new to Trek.

Having more casual humor, more casual dialogue - Yeah something that wasn't done since TOS tv days.

And you can keep going. Now a lot of this seem to go by the wayside before in by before the end of the season. But lets be very clear here the early part of Enterprise did present Trek in a different manner then most of the rest of Trek did.

You may have disliked it, or liked it but it absolutely did presented Trek in a different light when it started compared to the rest of Trek at that point. You might have expected larger or more structural changes, but they didn't make statement about that.

 

[Jayson1]

Yes. Georgiou's turn was poorly handled. She seemed to go evil to slightly less evil to loved for some reason that is not made really clear. A deficiency of DSC's structure and weak writing overall.

One problem is I never felt like they even ever did anything with Georgiou. It feels like all she did was basically spend 4 years after her initial episodes was sit around making snarky comments. She made no connection with any character other than Burnham and barely made one with even her.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I'm kinda curious what a Trekkie's ideal trailer would be. Long spaceship shots, clips of engineers reeling off technical specifications as music swells to a big warp jump finale?

Sounds better than a "misfit warning" and terrible contemporary music.

To be honest I don't think I have even seen a Star Trek trailer from the classic/Berman era. Not "live" anyway.
Two trailers that stand out for me are Dune and Gladiator. I had no clue such a thing as Gladiator was in the works so the trailer floored me. Dune I wasn't sure what to expect after previous poor attempts but the trailer was astonishing.

Both had classical scores and zero bad bitches.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Kira: “It's never too late. The worst of us can be redeemed.”

Nowhere has she been forgiven for what she’s done. But it’s fascinating to see her grow and change from what she was. There’s so many story possibilities there. It’s what I hoped they were exploring with Mirror Lorca before he turned into a radio serial villain.

One of DS9's biggest mistakes was to turn Dukat into an irredeemable monster and then to pair him up with Kira in that weird odd couple way. Damar was the far more interesting and nuanced character for a finish.