Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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That's over a Century back. Lets do a real world experiment. The first Military Intelligence Branch in the USA, predecessor to today's Military Intelligence Corps, lasted between 1885 and 1903. It wasn't secret. Without looking it up, what was its name?
Military Information Division
I think this is looking for an issue to exist.
It's simply a quasi retcon. Star Trek has done them before. Like Uhura and Chapel not recognizing T'pring in Amok time. Trek is full of them even in tge prime timeline. The real reason is Discovery writers couldn't resist playing with the Section 31 concept to that degree and just downplayed how " secret" they are perceived. Is it an overt cannon violation? Not in my opinion . But for me, it lessens (albeit not severely) the verisimilitude of the story .
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Only Uhura didn't. Chapel wasn't on the bridge.
They created a reasonable reason for it to become more secret, so I still fail to see the issue.
Uhura hasn't met T'pring in SNW (correct me if I'm wrong). She's knows who she is, but it's plausible that she doesn't know what she looks like. So she doesn't recognize her on the viewscreen.
Heh, I was about to make this same post.
One hundred years is a long time.
But I tend to agree with @trekfan_1, it's just a retcon because along the way Section 31 became part of Starfleet Intelligence, because spies are fun and "Section 31" sounds cool.
They're pretty careful on SNW to dot the fanboy i's, shoot, they usually lampshade it.
If SI and 31 are the same thing, why have both? Perhaps SI is for internal and 31 for external threats, but they have the competent but limited department of Internal Affairs in DS9 as well. So maybe it could work like this: In the Disco/TOS era, SI was internal and 31 external, both official and legit, but then following the Control debacle, IA was created for internal stuff and SI switched to external, taking over 31's role officially, while 31 itself kept existing in secret.
One merely needs to look at the several intelligence agencies within the United States government and it's various branches to know that more than one is not even close to unreasonable.
Indeed. And then you have G2 intelligence services, as well as the US Army Counterintelligence Division and the US Army Intelligence and Security Command. And that's just in once branch!
Two departments in Starfleet for Intelligence and counterintelligence services? No wonder Picard and Kirk and Spock were all tasked with espionage duties. Starfleet is woefully underprepared!
Indeed. And then you have G2 intelligence services, as well as the US Army Counterintelligence Division and the US Army Intelligence and Security Command. And that's just in once branch!
Two departments in Starfleet for Intelligence and counterintelligence services? No wonder Picard and Kirk and Spock were all tasked with espionage duties. Starfleet is woefully underprepared!
Maybe I wouldn't phrase it exactly that way ( "cool") but i do think they do stretch canon or retcon when they want to play with an inconic concept or it serves a narrative they want. Even though Spock said in TOS he never melded with human , I knew they couldn't resist showing Ethan Peck melding with a human. "Enterprise" also has done some cannon stretching. Its not a modern Trek thing. And honestly if it serves the narrative, I'm totally fine with some retconnig.. With Section 31, for me, less is more. Part of the mystique about the concept is how under the radar secretive they are. That was the original intent of Section 31 when it was created. Laris on Picard mentined a group is not really much of a secrative group if numerous people know who they are when describing the Zhat Vash. That's how I feel about Section 31.
Having said all that, It's not a deal breaker at all. And yes we can explain away " well maybe Section 31 was more or less secrative because of x, y,z etc) At the end of the day, it's really only a minor quibble for me.
Indeed, yes.
And I'd rather work with it than look for continuity issues.
But, I'm more than forgiving with Trek. Comes from preferring James R. Kirk.
There is no contradiction regarding the information around Section 31.
If its taken literally by Bashir that Section 31 has existed for three hundred years, then they’ve been around since 2074, decades before Starfleet was even formed. Meaning Section 31 is a relic of the post-atomic horror, and came into existence a decade after first contact with the Vulcans; they might have even come into being as a result of that (and possibly the Earth-Kzin Wars as well). Of course, Bashir has also suggested that mistrust between Starfleet and the Romulans has existed for three hundred years as well, when first contact between the two only happen in 2152, so make of that what you will.
Section 31 is also a part of the charter, as confirmed by ENT; the UES Charter was later adopted by Federation Starfleet. It does not stop Section 31 from taking on different names for organizations that behave as fronts for them. So, Section 31 does exist, as a part of the Charter. But it does not exist, legally, as an organization. Its to be used, from Starfleet Intelligence all the way to the Federation Council, to contravene other aspects of the Charter and legally bend the rules. So that aspect is also correct, even if its frequent use might be abusive.
Yes, they had badges in DIS. But it might have actually been an attempt at transparency and a way to hold the organization accountable (and I would like to think that idea came from Archer after his experience with them). Keeping it in line with the high-minded morals of Starfleet and the Federation. So, that also mean that the Control incident was a public failure and Section 31 likely faded away from the public consciousness, and became lost to history, because of that.
Yes, Starfleet Headquarters never admitted to the existence of Section 31. Keep in mind that Picard had once never heard of Kirk, despite Kirk being a famous figure in Starfleet history. So, Starfleet Headquarters not admitting anything is meaningless
Yes, Section 31 is widely known in LD and PIC, as Bashir shared the info with members of the DS9 senior staff. It then becomes a game of telephone as word gets around. Odo would share with the Great Link, and Kira would share with Bajoran Intelligence. Sisko, if he shared with anyone, would have only shared with those ranked captain or higher, and he likely eventually learned of the ties that Admiral Ross had to the organization. O’Brien likely shared with Keiko, who probably shared with their kids when they were old enough, and with her civilian friends. Dax would share with Trill Intelligence (if Trill Intelligence actually exists). Worf would share with Klingon Intelligence and with the Klingon High Council. Quark would share with other Ferengi and other clients in general as word increasingly gets around. Knowledge regarding Section 31 was also shared by the Romulans, who would not have any reason to keep knowledge of Section 31 a secret on the Continuing Committee, since Section 31 associated with Starfleet/the Federation, and not the Romulans.
Now, just because everyone knows about Section 31, does not mean people understand Section 31. Which is why Worf needed to brief Picard, Riker and the Titan-A crew about the role Section 31 played with experimenting on the Changelings.
If its taken literally by Bashir that Section 31 has existed for three hundred years, then they’ve been around since 2074, decades before Starfleet was even formed. Meaning Section 31 is a relic of the post-atomic horror, and came into existence a decade after first contact with the Vulcans; they might have even come into being as a result of that (and possibly the Earth-Kzin Wars as well). Of course, Bashir has also suggested that mistrust between Starfleet and the Romulans has existed for three hundred years as well, when first contact between the two only happen in 2152, so make of that what you will.
Section 31 is also a part of the charter, as confirmed by ENT; the UES Charter was later adopted by Federation Starfleet. It does not stop Section 31 from taking on different names for organizations that behave as fronts for them. So, Section 31 does exist, as a part of the Charter. But it does not exist, legally, as an organization. Its to be used, from Starfleet Intelligence all the way to the Federation Council, to contravene other aspects of the Charter and legally bend the rules. So that aspect is also correct, even if its frequent use might be abusive.
Yes, they had badges in DIS. But it might have actually been an attempt at transparency and a way to hold the organization accountable (and I would like to think that idea came from Archer after his experience with them). Keeping it in line with the high-minded morals of Starfleet and the Federation. So, that also mean that the Control incident was a public failure and Section 31 likely faded away from the public consciousness, and became lost to history, because of that.
Yes, Starfleet Headquarters never admitted to the existence of Section 31. Keep in mind that Picard had once never heard of Kirk, despite Kirk being a famous figure in Starfleet history. So, Starfleet Headquarters not admitting anything is meaningless
Yes, Section 31 is widely known in LD and PIC, as Bashir shared the info with members of the DS9 senior staff. It then becomes a game of telephone as word gets around. Odo would share with the Great Link, and Kira would share with Bajoran Intelligence. Sisko, if he shared with anyone, would have only shared with those ranked captain or higher, and he likely eventually learned of the ties that Admiral Ross had to the organization. O’Brien likely shared with Keiko, who probably shared with their kids when they were old enough, and with her civilian friends. Dax would share with Trill Intelligence (if Trill Intelligence actually exists). Worf would share with Klingon Intelligence and with the Klingon High Council. Quark would share with other Ferengi and other clients in general as word increasingly gets around. Knowledge regarding Section 31 was also shared by the Romulans, who would not have any reason to keep knowledge of Section 31 a secret on the Continuing Committee, since Section 31 associated with Starfleet/the Federation, and not the Romulans.
Now, just because everyone knows about Section 31, does not mean people understand Section 31. Which is why Worf needed to brief Picard, Riker and the Titan-A crew about the role Section 31 played with experimenting on the Changelings.
He wasn't speaking literally, as humans are known to do.
Reasonable. As well as a distancing of Starfleet from those actions and increasing plausible deniability.
Not meaningless, but doesn't mean what is assumed, that it isn't known. Simply that they prefer distance and plausible deniability.
How many US presidents have their been? More than the number we use today, and the ones before are lost to history. Can see the same happening with Section 31 being more overt and covert throughout history.
Although yes IRL, it's a retcon and it's a TV show. Into Darkness had the cool black death ship, so Discovery had a fleet of them. Pike is no longer uncomfortable having women on his bridge. One is more of an understandable change, but both are YMMV things.
Although yes IRL, it's a retcon and it's a TV show. Into Darkness had the cool black death ship, so Discovery had a fleet of them. Pike is no longer uncomfortable having women on his bridge. One is more of an understandable change, but both are YMMV things.
Sorry, I can’t see Anson Mount’s Pike ever having a problem with women on his bridge. Thats why it’s patently ridiculous to believe that Hunter’s Pike is the same guy as Mount’s Pike.
People really should watch the episode.
There's another woman on the bridge. Pike is clearly processing his trauma still.
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