Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[BillJ]

Again, I don't know. I'm willing to explore the idea of a person trying to become better. We had that with Kor and the rest of the Klingons. It's a thought experiment of how does humanity become better and move on from its most evil of past sins? Because all of us, as humans, are capable of great evil.

They need to find someone else who doesn't have the blood of millions on their hands to try and redeem. Besides, what can redeem such heinous crimes and who decides if they've been redeemed? I hate to say this, but Ash Tyler would be a far more interesting character to lead such a show. Especially since he has skin on both sides of the Federation-Klingon divide. Georgiou is essentially a carpet-bagger who meddles in the affairs of something she has no personal interest in.

What troubles me, is the lack of forethought involved with pretty much every aspect of Discovery, which will now seep into its first spin-off. They knew that Yeoh was having fun with the show, so why not rewrite the ending that sent Georgiou to the Discovery universe? A Game of Thrones-esque series set in the Mirror universe, to me, would be a far more interesting stretch of the Trek concept and Yeoh's talent than Space Stalin chasing spy plots.

 

[fireproof78]

Besides, what can redeem such heinous crimes and who decides if they've been redeemed?

Who decides what is redemption?

What troubles me, is the lack of forethought involved with pretty much every aspect of Discovery, which will now seep into its first spin-off. They knew that Yeoh was having fun with the show, so why not rewrite the ending that sent Georgiou to the Discovery universe? A Game of Thrones-esque series set in the Mirror universe, to me, would be a far more interesting stretch of the Trek concept and Yeoh's talent than Space Stalin chasing spy plots.

I agree that there is a lack of foresight, and the BTS troubles showcase that quite a bit.

But, if there is push back against DSC as Prime, against Kelvin as an Alternate universe then I can't imagine the outrage of having a Mirror Universe full series. It would make this thread seem tame by comparison.

 

[BillJ]

But, if there is push back against DSC as Prime, against Kelvin as an Alternate universe then I can't imagine the outrage of having a Mirror Universe full series. It would make this thread seem tame by comparison.

I don't know? The Mirror universe, while not my first choice as a setting, is a pretty clean slate aside from a few key events. Heck, they could've moved the show to a few years later in the timeline and had Mirror Spock and his reforms against Mirror Georgiou.

Mirror Spock and Yeoh as the two main characters might sell quite a few All-Access subscriptions.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know? The Mirror universe, while not my first choice as a setting, is a pretty clean slate aside from a few key events. Heck, they could've moved the show to a few years later in the timeline and had Mirror Spock and his reforms against Mirror Georgiou.

Mirror Spock and Yeoh as the two main characters might sell quite a few All-Access subscriptions.

Well, I admire your optimism that it would be accepted. I highly doubt it, given the contentious nature of this thread.

 

[BillJ]

I highly doubt it, given the contentious nature of this thread.

I don't see the thread as contentious, just people talking about the potential good (Michelle Yeoh) and potential bad (Space Stalin working for the Federation) in the show. You always have one or two who throw a temper tantrum and stalk off at the first hint of people not immediately falling in love with what they see as genius.

Such is life on the interwebs.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see the thread as contentious, just people talking about the potential good (Michelle Yeoh) and potential bad (Space Stalin working for the Federation) in the show. You always have one or two who throw a temper tantrum and stalk off at the first hint of people not immediately falling in love with what they see as genius.

Such is life on the interwebs.

It is contentious when terms like "Space Stalin" get tossed about which are designed to garner a reaction.

And there is no reason to fall in love with this show or consider it genius. It simply is.

 

[BillJ]

It is contentious when terms like "Space Stalin" get tossed about which are designed to garner a reaction.

How would you describe Georgiou? Based on what they showed us of the character, I don't see any other good way to do it.

 

[fireproof78]

How would you describe Georgiou? Based on what they showed us of the character, I don't see any other good way to do it.

An evil emperor who wasn't taught any other way. Or perhaps Spartan Emperor-kill or be killed.

 

[BillJ]

An evil emperor who wasn't taught any other way.

Lots of people aren't taught any other way than hate and violence in their lives. Do we give them all a pass because they couldn't figure out how to act like a human being? Do we give Adolph Hitler a pass because of what he was taught and how he was treated growing up?

I guess since I was taught hate and violence as a kid growing up, I have permission to beat the wife and kids, then go get an AR-15 and start mowing people down? And everyone should forgive me because I had a hard life?

For some folks, CBS is clearly stepping into a very sticky situation with attempting to normalize a mass murderer. And it isn't off screen murder, we watch her kill her advisors in a brutal way. For me, Star Trek was an escape from that kind of world, a world where violence and hate were the norm. To see it sink to that level is appalling.

 

[fireproof78]

Lots of people aren't taught any other way than hate and violence in their lives. Do we give them all a pass because they couldn't figure out how to act like a human being? Do we give Adolph Hitler a pass because of what he was taught and how he was treated growing up?

Do we give them the opportunity to learn a new way? If I never knew how "act like a human" (what does that mean exactly? Who decides?) why am I punished for what I did not know?

See, the examples that you point out in our world make it challenging because we know the systems are in place to teach morals, right and wrong. Germany was the seat of many Enlightment figures, and philosophers, but also had their own struggles. Are those figures present in the Mirror Universe? Did they have the same moral philosophy to teach them these things that we now take for granted? Is right and wrong a moral absolute across universes? If so, what is the standard and who arbitrates it?

I don't know about forgiveness but I do believe that there are things that could garner understanding. One great aspect of humanity is the ability to take on another person's POV even if it is contrary to one's own.

For some folks, CBS is clearly stepping into a very sticky situation with attempting to normalize a mass murderer.

If I thought they were normalizing it I would agree. I don't think they are though. Mileage will vary.

 

[BillJ]

See, the examples that you point out in our world make it challenging because we know the systems are in place to teach morals, right and wrong. Germany was the seat of many Enlightment figures, and philosophers, but also had their own struggles. Are those figures present in the Mirror Universe? Did they have the same moral philosophy to teach them these things that we now take for granted? Is right and wrong a moral absolute across universes? If so, what is the standard and who arbitrates it?

There had to be some kind of balance, or else the Mirror universe Earth would've never thrived and grown into an Empire. You have to have people capable of making decisions that aren't "kill everyone".

Much like there has to be more to the Klingon Empire than the warrior caste. The Empire simply couldn't survive without farmers, scientists, lawyers, police and other types of workers.

 

[Dukhat]

I dunno...I don’t really see Mirror Georgiou as a particularly interesting or relatable character at all. From what I have seen (and granted, I haven’t seen DSC season 2 yet) she comes across as a complete cardboard and stereotypical evil villain with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I’ve mentioned this before, but the only two ways a character like that can go is either to create a false sense of “redemption” like others here have said, or just continue the “eeevil!” personality because they think that kind of thing will make a good show. Personally, I’m far more interested in Star Trek Picard and season 3 of DSC than I am at all interested in some covert op show with Star Trek in the title.

 

[fireproof78]

There had to be some kind of balance, or else the Mirror universe Earth would've never thrived and grown into an Empire. You have to have people capable of making decisions that aren't "kill everyone".

Of course, and they clearly have those people, but it is a precarious balance that is struck. People are not really people but "assets" or "enemies." It is a very utilitarian universe of survival, that if you benefit me then you can continue to live, but know that I am keeping an eye on you.

In reality of course it probably couldn't work that way, at least not to galactic domination. But, again, this is Star Trek, where Nazis are described as the most efficient government the world had seen by Spock. There is going to be some fuzzy logic applied.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, and they clearly have those people, but it is a precarious balance that is struck. People are not really people but "assets" or "enemies." It is a very utilitarian universe of survival, that if you benefit me then you can continue to live, but know that I am keeping an eye on you.

We saw that with the eastern block countries in the Soviet Union. They just kinda crumbled from within, with no one wanting to introduce new ideas. North Korea is a shithole for the same reason. Infrastructure is a train wreck, innovation comes from stealing from others.

I don't think an "asset" and "enemy" society can thrive for long, at least we have no real world evidence of it doing so.

 

[BillJ]

In all honesty, it was simply short-sighted to kill Georgiou to begin with. Would've been more interesting to see a Starfleet true-believer becoming a Section 31 operative.

 

[fireproof78]

We saw that with the eastern block countries in the Soviet Union. They just kinda crumbled from within, with no one wanting to introduce new ideas. North Korea is a shithole for the same reason. Infrastructure is a train wreck, innovation comes from stealing from others.

I don't think an "asset" and "enemy" society can thrive for long, at least we have no real world evidence of it doing so.

You're probably right, though it is utilitarian in approach, it probably cannot function for long.

In all honesty, it was simply short-sighted to kill Georgiou to begin with. Would've been more interesting to see a Starfleet true-believer becoming a Section 31 operative.

You are also probably right on this point as well.

 

[PiotrB]

Emperor Georgiou, is the equivalent of Josef Stalin.

Nope. EG is the equivalent of e.g. Caesar in ancient Rome and rules on similar principles. Regardless of whether one is an emperor or just a captain of a spaceship, one cannot show weakness in there. Such a culture prevails in there and it has nothing to do with morality. This is the same cultural difference as e.g. between the Federation and the Klingon Empire which is ruled by similar principles and commits similar crimes. Somehow it does not prevent the Federation from being with this empire in friendly relations in the XXIV century. And also on a personal level, the killer can return to his post on a Federation ship as if nothing had happened. Since there are no discussions about Worf's morality here, MU Georgiou should be treated by the commentators in a similar way, because she did not commit any crime in the PU and so far she has adhered to federation customs.

They need to find someone else who doesn't have the blood of millions on their hands to try and redeem.

Do you remember that Archer is a hero of the Federation?

How would you describe Georgiou?

Space Caesar.

 

[BillJ]

Since there are no discussions about Worf's morality here, MU Georgiou should be treated by the commentators in a similar way, because she did not commit any crime in the PU and so far she has adhered to federation customs.

Because Picard handled the moral aspect of the argument in his Ready Room with a questioning of Worf's ability to function as a representative of the Federation and a reprimand on his record. The legal aspect was handled according to Klingon custom, after contacting the Klingons.

Since we now know the Mirror Universe isn't that hard to get to, shouldn't the Federation reach out and ask if they want their Warlord back to face charges? Shouldn't there be a bit of a moral argument about a mass murderer serving in a Federation organization?

 

[The Old Mixer]

What happens in the Mirror Universe stays in the Mirror Universe.

 

[PiotrB]

Because Picard handled the moral aspect of the argument in his Ready Room with a questioning of Worf's ability to function as a representative of the Federation and a reprimand on his record.

Picard handled it by moral lecture so maybe Georgiou just could read Picard's sermons about Federation morals and all will be handled.

Since we now know the Mirror Universe isn't that hard to get to, shouldn't the Federation reach out and ask if they want their Warlord back to face charges?

Ah. Since it is only a matter of applying local laws and customs, Burnham gave them to the Federation in her reports, so we know that the emperor Georgiou acted in accordance with the laws and customs prevailing there, so she is as pure as Worf. Scriptwriters don't have to do anything and MU Georgiou can become a fully-fledged positive heroine of her series.

Shouldn't there be a bit of a moral argument about a mass murderer serving in a Federation organization?

Yes, I agree that Picard should not remain in the Starfleet after what he did as a Borg.