^I don't disagree. But as you know, classified documents can at times be leaked...be it by a hacker, or a traitor, or just someone being sloppy....
Section 31 = British MI6?
- Thread starter Lyon_Wonder
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There's no such thing as perfect security, and the state should not keep secrets such as these unless there's a damn good reason (and not mere political expediency or to avoid embarrassment) -- and then, they'd better be willing to give up their secrets once the reason for keeping those secrets ceases to be applicable.
Does that mean they run the risk that classified data will be leaked? Yes. It's worth that risk.
Is it now?
^Touche`.
Yes.
^And your reasons would be...? 
^And your reasons would be...?
I already explained them.
Ah. So you did.
(Why do I get the feeling this is all dissolving into a competition as to who gets the last word?)
(Why do I get the feeling this is all dissolving into a competition as to who gets the last word?)
I don't think Section 31 = any today's secret intelligence organization. They are obviously very different.
I don't like the idea of Section 31 being involved in every little coverup that happened in Star Trek, like the book authors implicating them in Insurrection, and Layton working with them and all that nonsense. I'm disappointed this has been done, and I think it's little childish and fanboyinsh. It reminds me of Star Wars fans putting Boba Fett into every little bounty action that ever happened, as if other bounty hunters don't exist.
Layton was acting out of greed for power, not to protect the Federation, although that would have been part of it. He used young personnel, Red Squad and young captain Benteen to support his goals, and it was done very sloppily. I don't see a sign of S31 anywhere. They are very smooth, and wouldn't undermine what Federation is about and give all power to one man. They are there to protect the Federation not to destroy it. After all, Layton would have been a threat to them. Insurrection was horribly executed, I don't think that Admiral was an agent at all, may be he was working for them on a one time mission like Ross, because his views temporarily aligned with theirs.
I also don't like the idea that Section 31 existed since the founding of the Federation. How was whatever Sloan said true? No one would have known about it since then? May be it was part of the original charter as Section 31 of the constitution but was eventually cut off and Sloan used it as inspiration.
The vibe I get from the show is that Section 31 is a small organization of like-minded, self-sacrificing individuals, people who have lost a lot or don't have much to lose. It's a loose organization separated into cells of 2 or 3 people all controlled by one or two people at the top. Sort of like alqaida, but much more sophisticated. Imagine if Bashir was recruited (which in a way he was) and freely accepted entry. He would have likely only known Sloan and no one else.
Section 31 rely on a few sympathetic officers in Starfleet to turn the other cheek and feed them key information and give them a nudge here and there (like the ones in Starfleet Medical), or help provide them with special technology. Because of a lack of agents, especially at high positions, they are forced to temporarily ally themselves with others, such as Ross, in order achieve their goals, or Bashir, when they needed a walking tricorder for the operation on Romulus. There are no permanent agents, and only a few real ones, that kind of thing would be very hard to track.
I believed Sloan when he said there is no headquarters, no training academy, no files, no back up and support, no one to report to. It's all in the head of a few individuals who don't think like other 24th century officers. I also think it's a recently created organization, inspired by Section 31 from the founding of Federation. If it had been around for hundreds of years, we would have heard whispers about it.
I also wouldn't exclude the possibility that Sloan may be the actual leader of the whole thing, or at least second-in-command. There might be an element of truth to the whole admiral Fujisaki poisoning story or the story that his son was killed in an ambush. There seems to be a common thread that creeps through his fake stories.
Finally, I wouldn't discount Timo's theory that it might all be made up by Sloan, although it would be very difficult to achieve by one person.
I don't like the idea of Section 31 being involved in every little coverup that happened in Star Trek, like the book authors implicating them in Insurrection, and Layton working with them and all that nonsense. I'm disappointed this has been done, and I think it's little childish and fanboyinsh. It reminds me of Star Wars fans putting Boba Fett into every little bounty action that ever happened, as if other bounty hunters don't exist.
Layton was acting out of greed for power, not to protect the Federation, although that would have been part of it. He used young personnel, Red Squad and young captain Benteen to support his goals, and it was done very sloppily. I don't see a sign of S31 anywhere. They are very smooth, and wouldn't undermine what Federation is about and give all power to one man. They are there to protect the Federation not to destroy it. After all, Layton would have been a threat to them. Insurrection was horribly executed, I don't think that Admiral was an agent at all, may be he was working for them on a one time mission like Ross, because his views temporarily aligned with theirs.
I also don't like the idea that Section 31 existed since the founding of the Federation. How was whatever Sloan said true? No one would have known about it since then? May be it was part of the original charter as Section 31 of the constitution but was eventually cut off and Sloan used it as inspiration.
The vibe I get from the show is that Section 31 is a small organization of like-minded, self-sacrificing individuals, people who have lost a lot or don't have much to lose. It's a loose organization separated into cells of 2 or 3 people all controlled by one or two people at the top. Sort of like alqaida, but much more sophisticated. Imagine if Bashir was recruited (which in a way he was) and freely accepted entry. He would have likely only known Sloan and no one else.
Section 31 rely on a few sympathetic officers in Starfleet to turn the other cheek and feed them key information and give them a nudge here and there (like the ones in Starfleet Medical), or help provide them with special technology. Because of a lack of agents, especially at high positions, they are forced to temporarily ally themselves with others, such as Ross, in order achieve their goals, or Bashir, when they needed a walking tricorder for the operation on Romulus. There are no permanent agents, and only a few real ones, that kind of thing would be very hard to track.
I believed Sloan when he said there is no headquarters, no training academy, no files, no back up and support, no one to report to. It's all in the head of a few individuals who don't think like other 24th century officers. I also think it's a recently created organization, inspired by Section 31 from the founding of Federation. If it had been around for hundreds of years, we would have heard whispers about it.
I also wouldn't exclude the possibility that Sloan may be the actual leader of the whole thing, or at least second-in-command. There might be an element of truth to the whole admiral Fujisaki poisoning story or the story that his son was killed in an ambush. There seems to be a common thread that creeps through his fake stories.
Finally, I wouldn't discount Timo's theory that it might all be made up by Sloan, although it would be very difficult to achieve by one person.
Since you've stated your dislike of how Section 31 is treated in the novels, I'm going to assume you're only considering the onscreen material.
True. No argument there.
Section 31 is sometimes sloppy also (after all a rookie like Bashir caught the "Director" of S31 out; the Klingons screwed Agent Harris). It's plausible that S31 wasn't involved with Leyton or with the Admiral in Insurrection. The authors simply made the connection to make it more interesting. After all, Section 31 seems to operate on the same principle as Leyton "Saving paradise by destroying it". (It's no longer a paradise when citizens are involved in genocide of other races or in acts of terrorism no matter what the justification)
I disagree with the notion that Section 31 wouldn't undermine the Federation under any circumstances. Any secret organization makes keeping itself a secret a top-priority. If that goal contradicts with their goal of "saving" the Federation, saving themselves from exposure would be their priority.
You're forgetting that Section 31 was introduced to us viewers during Archer's time on the Enterprise NX, before the founding of the Federation. Agent Harris preceded Sloan by a few hundred years.
This is possible.
As I said above, we did hear of it much before the founding of the Federation and before the Coalition of Planets was formed.
Couldn't have all been made up by Sloan if it existed well before he was born could it?
True. No argument there.
Section 31 is sometimes sloppy also (after all a rookie like Bashir caught the "Director" of S31 out; the Klingons screwed Agent Harris). It's plausible that S31 wasn't involved with Leyton or with the Admiral in Insurrection. The authors simply made the connection to make it more interesting. After all, Section 31 seems to operate on the same principle as Leyton "Saving paradise by destroying it". (It's no longer a paradise when citizens are involved in genocide of other races or in acts of terrorism no matter what the justification)
I disagree with the notion that Section 31 wouldn't undermine the Federation under any circumstances. Any secret organization makes keeping itself a secret a top-priority. If that goal contradicts with their goal of "saving" the Federation, saving themselves from exposure would be their priority.
You're forgetting that Section 31 was introduced to us viewers during Archer's time on the Enterprise NX, before the founding of the Federation. Agent Harris preceded Sloan by a few hundred years.
This is possible.
As I said above, we did hear of it much before the founding of the Federation and before the Coalition of Planets was formed.
Couldn't have all been made up by Sloan if it existed well before he was born could it?
^I didn't really watch Enterprise bar a few episodes, and I can't consider it cannon when it goes against established "history". To me, it's as cannon as the nuTrek by Abrams, a whole separate parallel universe.
So I based my argument on DS9 alone. I did read the TNG S31 book a long time ago, and found it really good, I just don't remember any details.
So I based my argument on DS9 alone. I did read the TNG S31 book a long time ago, and found it really good, I just don't remember any details.
I didn't want to derail the topic, but in brief:
The first episode kind of goes against it, doesn't it? Klingons were first met in a disastrous incident that cost many lives, not on a farm. And 5 days to Quo'nos on a Warp 5 ship? Are Klingons next to Vulcan?
I heard that there were Romulans and Ferengi, although I didn't see those episodes. I also heard that there was talk of a mysterious station, apparently referring to ds9. I mean come one, DS9 was built during occupation in the space of 2.5 or 1.5 years, not 300 years before ds9.
Plus, I can't see how the coming Romulan war is supposed to be the same as the one we read about, ie, Nuclear warhead lobbed at each other without us seeing each other.
I saw a few other episodes, some were decent, and I can't help but feel for the actors, especially Bacula, but the show doesn't look canon thanks to retardation of the producers
PS. And since I didn't watch the Romulan episodes, did the Romulans have cloak?
I didn't want to derail the topic, but in brief:
The first episode kind of goes against it, doesn't it? Klingons were first met in a disastrous incident that cost many lives, not on a farm. And 5 days to Quo'nos on a Warp 5 ship? Are Klingons next to Vulcan?
Yeah this was a bit badly done...
The Earth-Romulan war took place in Ent's Time...and the Ferengi weren't refered to by name (though this could be where TNGs ideas of Ferengi as dangerous came from.
Wrong. No DS9.
Blame TOS for that, not Ent...
Whether or not it looks canon, by the definition of canon it is...
Umm...sort of...
On Section 31's orginization:
Sloan said that all the top secret info Bashir saw in his head (so to speak) was only known to a select group of people. And...in the Voyager Section 31 novel, he's established to have the rank of "Director". (I'm accepting the books as "fact", for argument's sake)
So...my take is that: The Bureau is divided into different departments, each headed by a different director. Every so often, the directors collectively meet to discuss missions, but other than that, the directors have sole authority over their respective departments. They all have an unspoken agreement that "you don't interfere with me, I don't interfere with you"--which might explain the apparent inconsistencies in The Bureau's apparent competence--or lack therof.
Some departments (like Sloan's) are more competent than others.
Sloan said that all the top secret info Bashir saw in his head (so to speak) was only known to a select group of people. And...in the Voyager Section 31 novel, he's established to have the rank of "Director". (I'm accepting the books as "fact", for argument's sake)
So...my take is that: The Bureau is divided into different departments, each headed by a different director. Every so often, the directors collectively meet to discuss missions, but other than that, the directors have sole authority over their respective departments. They all have an unspoken agreement that "you don't interfere with me, I don't interfere with you"--which might explain the apparent inconsistencies in The Bureau's apparent competence--or lack therof.
Some departments (like Sloan's) are more competent than others.
The most the novels have ever established is that Admiral Dougherty was working for Section 31 in INS and that Admiral Cartwright was probably a Section 31 agent. They've never established Section 31 to be behind the Leyton coup attempt.
Yeah, and the United States Army was in My Lai, Vietnam, to save it from the North Vietnamese. That didn't stop those Army troops from deciding that they had to destroy the village to save it.
Section 31 is not there to protect the Federation; that's just their excuse. Section 31 is there to perpetuate its own power base.
It's possible; we don't know. But the fact that the INS mission was poorly executed doesn't rule out it being a Section 31 operation. Section 31 is terribly incompetent, after all.
Too bad. It's been canonically established.
It's all possible, but there's no evidence for it.
You may not accept it as canonical, but that doesn't mean it is not canonical. Canon is determined by the owners of Trek, not us.
That was a tragic exception to the rule, Sci. Just as our troops over there generally did not partake in incidents like that (read: they almost never did), one can not assume that a few instances are examples of a norm.
Again, I am not justifying what they did. Just playing devil's advocate--to keep y'all honest.
Not neccessarily. As I stated before, some departments (like Sloan's) may be more competent than others.
That, sir, is a leap in the dark. The Bureau may in fact honestly believe that what they're doing is for the Federation. Note Roberta Luke's logs in the Voyager novel.
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I honestly think Sloan is there to protect the Federation. He's doing what he believes is right. His whole speech about people being able to sleep at night seemed convincing. I don't think he's there to perpetuate his own power base. We can see when we are in his brain how much he sacrificed in his life
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