Section 31 = British MI6?

[Rush Limborg]

I honestly think Sloan is there to protect the Federation. He's doing what he believes is right. His whole speech about people being able to sleep at night seemed convincing. I don't think he's there to perpetuate his own power base. We can see when we are in his brain how much he sacrificed in his life

Exactly. And...if you look carefully in the final scene of "Inter Arna...", when Sloan gives the "sleep at night" speech...he actually looks a little sad.

It's like he's thinking, "I envy you, Doctor...because you can't comprehend the evils I have to fight...nor can you begin to understand all that I've sacrificed for what I'm doing...."

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I honestly think Sloan is there to protect the Federation. He's doing what he believes is right. His whole speech about people being able to sleep at night seemed convincing. I don't think he's there to perpetuate his own power base. We can see when we are in his brain how much he sacrificed in his life

Exactly. And...if you look carefully in the final scene of "Inter Arna...", when Sloan gives the "sleep at night" speech...he actually looks a little sad.

It's like he's thinking, "I envy you, Doctor...because you can't comprehend the evils I have to fight...nor can you begin to understand all that I've sacrificed for what I'm doing...."

Right. He has no private life. He only knows a few people like the doctor, but they are his associates more than friends. In fact, in a strange way, the doctor could have been the closest thing he had to a friend at the time.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, and the United States Army was in My Lai, Vietnam, to save it from the North Vietnamese. That didn't stop those Army troops from deciding that they had to destroy the village to save it.

That was a tragic exception to the rule, Sci. Just as our troops over there generally did not partake in incidents like that (read: they almost never did), one can not assume that a few instances are examples of a norm.

Whether or not it was a norm is besides the point -- although the history of the Vietnam war is full of numerous human rights abuses by both sides. The point is that the mind is fully capable of justifying destroying something in the name of protecting it -- people are capable of being eminently logical while coming to absolutely insane, horrifying conclusions. The "we had to destroy it to save it" is full of precedents in real history (My Lai being just one), and to presume that Section 31 -- an agency that already fundamentally undermines the ideals of liberal democracy -- would be immune to that way of thinking, and would therefore never pose a threat to Federation security, seems fundamentally erroneous to me.

Section 31 is not there to protect the Federation; that's just their excuse. Section 31 is there to perpetuate its own power base.

That, sir, is a leap in the dark. The Bureau may in fact honestly believe that what they're doing is for the Federation. Note Roberta Luke's logs in the Voyager novel.

I'm sure they do believe that what they're doing is right for the Federation. It's an excuse for themselves as much as anyone else -- justifying their behavior to themselves as much as to outsiders.

People like that have an amazing habit of discovering that the course of action that's in the best interests of their nation/community/class/secret society/religion/whatever also happens to be in their best interests, too. Look at the Chilean coup d'etat that brought Augusto Pinochet to power for a prime example of how economic elites discovered that the situation that would be best for their pocketbooks -- a rollback of Chilean democratic socialism and the institution of a pro-corporation dictatorship -- also happened to be what was best for Chile.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^And...the difference between "excuse" and "motive" depends on whether one honestly believes one's own stated reasons...wouldn't you say?

 

[Rush Limborg]

I honestly think Sloan is there to protect the Federation. He's doing what he believes is right. His whole speech about people being able to sleep at night seemed convincing. I don't think he's there to perpetuate his own power base. We can see when we are in his brain how much he sacrificed in his life

Exactly. And...if you look carefully in the final scene of "Inter Arna...", when Sloan gives the "sleep at night" speech...he actually looks a little sad.

It's like he's thinking, "I envy you, Doctor...because you can't comprehend the evils I have to fight...nor can you begin to understand all that I've sacrificed for what I'm doing...."

Right. He has no private life. He only knows a few people like the doctor, but they are his associates more than friends. In fact, in a strange way, the doctor could have been the closest thing he had to a friend at the time.

Which makes his death even more unfortunate. It would've been interesting if we could've seen their uneasy alliance/battle-of-whits continue to develop...perhaps into some kind of friendship.

 

[Sci]

^And...the difference between "excuse" and "motive" depends on whether one honestly believes one's own stated reasons...wouldn't you say?

No, because people are not always honest with themselves about what their motives actually are. They might think they believe something, but act in complete defiance of their stated beliefs in the pursuit of a totally different objective that they are not honest enough to admit to themselves that they want.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^ How well we both know that....

Hence the term "honestly believes".

 

[Sci]

^ How well we both know that....

Hence the term "honestly believes".

Honesty is a funny thing. A man can be completely honest with himself intellectually while being completely dishonest with himself subconsciously.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Case in point: Plain...Simple...Garak.

All his tales are honestly true.

Especially the lies.

 

[Sci]

Case in point: Plain...Simple...Garak.

All his tales are honestly true.

Especially the lies.

Yep.

 

[Rush Limborg]

But then Garak isn't one for honesty. He doesn't believe in any such thing.

 

[Sci]

But then Garak isn't one for honesty. He doesn't believe in any such thing.

Well, to a point. There is one thing about which Garak has always been honest: His absolute, unconditional devotion to Cardassia.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Ah, yes. There is always that....