Not always I mean fan feedback is giving us SNW and I would say PIC 2&3 as well. I would say it was fan feedback gave us the Defiant too.
Seasons 1-2 or 3-4?
- Thread starter BlueStuff
- Start date
I quote Lt. Cmdr. Data: "Not always. But often"
And to say SNW is "good" is more than a little premature, as is saying PIC S2 and 3 are "good."
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It's good they were greenlit.
Pretty sure I still count as people. Unless that changed???
Deep Space 9 was actually arguably the first show that changed directly as a result of fan criticism online...and not for the better. The writers hated the "Dukat did nothing wrong" arguments that became prevalent on usenet, and felt they had done too good of a job making him a multifaceted villain by making the fandom identify with his arguments instead of hate him. So they overreacted and destroyed his character from Waltz onward.
For the record, I do prefer the third and fourth seasons overall, but I think it's time for the fifth season to really up the energy. We'll have been in the 32nd century for as long as we were in the 23rd. Somehow, Discovery's writers have managed to do a couple more life-as-we-know-it-ending threats here without it feeling as eventful as the first two seasons, which is... strange.
If the show happens to go for seven seasons, I think I'll like that the middle years are less sweeping and more — to borrow a page from non-fans — hugging. But I'd love to see it all pick up going forward, and perhaps ten-episode orders will aid in that regard.
I've always gotten the feeling that Michelle Paradise is a talented and intelligent showrunner whose focus on characterization, unfortunately, comes at the cost of a weakened plot. Last week's episode felt monumental to me in a way I hadn't felt since the first few episodes of the season, but even then, season four's "monumental" and season one's are certainly defined differently.
And I most assuredly do not want seven years and seven instances of "the universe could end because of this" that we saw back then, but it's not like the Burn and the DMA are leagues behind that.
If the show happens to go for seven seasons, I think I'll like that the middle years are less sweeping and more — to borrow a page from non-fans — hugging. But I'd love to see it all pick up going forward, and perhaps ten-episode orders will aid in that regard.
I've always gotten the feeling that Michelle Paradise is a talented and intelligent showrunner whose focus on characterization, unfortunately, comes at the cost of a weakened plot. Last week's episode felt monumental to me in a way I hadn't felt since the first few episodes of the season, but even then, season four's "monumental" and season one's are certainly defined differently.
And I most assuredly do not want seven years and seven instances of "the universe could end because of this" that we saw back then, but it's not like the Burn and the DMA are leagues behind that.
To me, Discovery has benefited from the course alterations in response to fan criticism. The show is more optimistic and less ugly, the time jump was a positive, the broadening of focus to include more characters has been welcome. The problems that linger are more fundamental. It’s stuff like landing a season arc, pacing, character motivations, etc. I mean, they interrupted the suspense of a *ticking-clock, end-of-the-world drama* for a scream-therapy session. That would have been a bizarre choice for any show, whether 24 or Star Trek. (And I say that as someone who likes talky, supportive Star Trek.)
It's a difficult question for me, cos all 4 seasons have stuff I liked and stuff I didn't like, but in the end I voted for season 1 - 2, cos the show was more exciting and every episode ended on some kind of weird cliffhanger, especially in season 1.
The writing on the wall for me was the fact that I stopped watching Discovery episodes again, a few days after the premiere, which I normally do, during the first half of season 3.
Season 1 had the Mirror Universe, which I don't like, but the show also had a sense of wonder and excitement. Plus it was fun to get to know these new characters. Lorca was a wasted opportunity at the end, but was played by a wonderful actor.
The first half of season 2 was the best Discovery had to offer, as of this time. The Red Angel stuff was really interesting and kept me on the edge of my seat. When Control and Section 31 came in, my interest started to wane... The season finale, part 2 that is, was awful . All that shooting. It was impossible for me eyes to follow everything what was going on. I felt nausea watching all that movement and explosions on my screen.
Season 3 had the time jump. I don't mind a time jump, but 800 years into the future is way too much. They should have jumped 200 or 300 years or something. Now everything feels disconnected and yet still too similar to what we know. In 800 years technology would be far more crazy than what Discovery has shown us. And at the same time, with this blank slate, my connection to the Star Trek Universe is lost. I don't really care anymore. The Burn was interesting and I even liked the solution with the crying child. The Orion Syndicate and it's leader was completely uninteresting and not needed.
Season 4 had some good episodes in its first half, but then everything came to a screetching halt, whilst Earth, Ni'Var and have you what not was in mortal danger. Episodes 8,9, 10 and 11 should have been 2 episodes. I hated that Tilly was leaving the ship. She was my favourite character. Every character started to have these shrink sessions. Everyone needed to talk about feelings during times when it's really inappropriate. The whole crew seems to have some kind of mental break down, even the ships computer. It's absurd and laughable and so unprofessional. The show is starting to annoy me and I hate feeling that! Cos I love my Star Trek!
The writing on the wall for me was the fact that I stopped watching Discovery episodes again, a few days after the premiere, which I normally do, during the first half of season 3.
Season 1 had the Mirror Universe, which I don't like, but the show also had a sense of wonder and excitement. Plus it was fun to get to know these new characters. Lorca was a wasted opportunity at the end, but was played by a wonderful actor.
The first half of season 2 was the best Discovery had to offer, as of this time. The Red Angel stuff was really interesting and kept me on the edge of my seat. When Control and Section 31 came in, my interest started to wane... The season finale, part 2 that is, was awful . All that shooting. It was impossible for me eyes to follow everything what was going on. I felt nausea watching all that movement and explosions on my screen.
Season 3 had the time jump. I don't mind a time jump, but 800 years into the future is way too much. They should have jumped 200 or 300 years or something. Now everything feels disconnected and yet still too similar to what we know. In 800 years technology would be far more crazy than what Discovery has shown us. And at the same time, with this blank slate, my connection to the Star Trek Universe is lost. I don't really care anymore. The Burn was interesting and I even liked the solution with the crying child. The Orion Syndicate and it's leader was completely uninteresting and not needed.
Season 4 had some good episodes in its first half, but then everything came to a screetching halt, whilst Earth, Ni'Var and have you what not was in mortal danger. Episodes 8,9, 10 and 11 should have been 2 episodes. I hated that Tilly was leaving the ship. She was my favourite character. Every character started to have these shrink sessions. Everyone needed to talk about feelings during times when it's really inappropriate. The whole crew seems to have some kind of mental break down, even the ships computer. It's absurd and laughable and so unprofessional. The show is starting to annoy me and I hate feeling that! Cos I love my Star Trek!
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It depends on a number of factors, as there were things seasons 1-2 did better and things seasons 3-4 did better.
Captain: it’s a revolving door between Georgiou, Lorca, Pike, Saru, Tilly & Burnham. And we’re probably not done either. Tie, for now
Burnham: I like her character much better in S3-4. But, I liked seeing Burnham being the first officer in S1-2.
Burnham Boyfriend: Book’s likable and has better chemistry with not just Burnham, but everyone else. Ash Tyler was bland and every scene dragged when he was around, whether Burnham was in the scene or not. So S3-4.
Stamets: Stamets only became likeable in S4. He’s been a jerk for the past three seasons and has been a generally unlikable character.
Culber: Culber had been good in every season he's been in, so a tie.
Tilly: Tilly somehow become a worse character when she ended up in the 32nd century, like she completely stalled out in development. She was much better in S1-2.
Saru: Saru is the same in every season, so tie.
Middle decks crew: Giving them character development and lines has been everything and makes DIS feel like a more complete Trek show. S3-4 hands down.
Admiral: Both Cornwell and Vance worked in the respective settings they were in, so tie.
Adversary (faction): The Emerald Chain is written well enough even when we don’t see them, which helps to understand the numerous ways they’ve affected the lives of countless people. The Klingons develop in DIS was a) poor, and b) told us nothing new about them, imo. Section 31 was too out in the open for a secret organization. The Terran Empire is interesting, in light of the events of IAMD, but undermined by the fact that Discovery was never going to be permanently stuck in the MU, so as cool as it was, it was also kind of pointless to see them.
Adversary (individual): Osyraa broke stereotypes of female Orions, ruling with both brains and an iron fist. And Tarka is interesting in that he’s not really a villain; he’s a fusion of Janeway and Ransom in “Equinox”. T’Kuvma was interesting but killed off way too quickly. I never cared for Leland. Seasons 3 & 4.
Threat of the Season: The Klingon War and Control were threats you didn't roll your eyes at. The Burn was caused by a child, and the DMA has made planetary destruction jump the shark and made me stop watching DIS for a while. Seasons 1& 2.
Setting: Seasons 1-2 had a much better setting, that was undermined by being set too close to TOS for DIS to stand on its own. Seasons 3-4 on the other hand, while allowing DIS to stand on its own two feet, is really bleak. S1-2 for me.
Tech: The tech of S3 & 4 is more appropriate for their setting compared to some of the tech seen for S1 & 2.
Mystery: The red bursts and the DMA are both worthy mysteries .Tie.
Political leaders: Empress Georgiou and L’Rell are effective leaders for their respective empires, and Po was shown to be effective scientist as well as leader. Osyraa’s offer being rejected by Vance showed ineffectiveness on her part in regards to dealmaking, and Rillak is too pushy by challenging Burnham’s authority in front of everyone on the bridge. S1-2.
Pacing: DIS finally figured it out in S4 as everything from "Choose to Live" to "Rubicon" is a good watch if you binge the show. "Choose To Live", "All Is Possible", & "The Examples" in particular are a trio of classic Trek episodes and what I’ve been looking from Discovery. The rest of the episodes of the season so far (bar the finale as it hasn't been seen yet as of this writing) could have been condensed into two episodes. S3 & 4 are a complete 180 from S1.
Overall: Season 3 & 4 edge out Season 1 & 2 by a bit.
Captain: it’s a revolving door between Georgiou, Lorca, Pike, Saru, Tilly & Burnham. And we’re probably not done either. Tie, for now
Burnham: I like her character much better in S3-4. But, I liked seeing Burnham being the first officer in S1-2.
Burnham Boyfriend: Book’s likable and has better chemistry with not just Burnham, but everyone else. Ash Tyler was bland and every scene dragged when he was around, whether Burnham was in the scene or not. So S3-4.
Stamets: Stamets only became likeable in S4. He’s been a jerk for the past three seasons and has been a generally unlikable character.
Culber: Culber had been good in every season he's been in, so a tie.
Tilly: Tilly somehow become a worse character when she ended up in the 32nd century, like she completely stalled out in development. She was much better in S1-2.
Saru: Saru is the same in every season, so tie.
Middle decks crew: Giving them character development and lines has been everything and makes DIS feel like a more complete Trek show. S3-4 hands down.
Admiral: Both Cornwell and Vance worked in the respective settings they were in, so tie.
Adversary (faction): The Emerald Chain is written well enough even when we don’t see them, which helps to understand the numerous ways they’ve affected the lives of countless people. The Klingons develop in DIS was a) poor, and b) told us nothing new about them, imo. Section 31 was too out in the open for a secret organization. The Terran Empire is interesting, in light of the events of IAMD, but undermined by the fact that Discovery was never going to be permanently stuck in the MU, so as cool as it was, it was also kind of pointless to see them.
Adversary (individual): Osyraa broke stereotypes of female Orions, ruling with both brains and an iron fist. And Tarka is interesting in that he’s not really a villain; he’s a fusion of Janeway and Ransom in “Equinox”. T’Kuvma was interesting but killed off way too quickly. I never cared for Leland. Seasons 3 & 4.
Threat of the Season: The Klingon War and Control were threats you didn't roll your eyes at. The Burn was caused by a child, and the DMA has made planetary destruction jump the shark and made me stop watching DIS for a while. Seasons 1& 2.
Setting: Seasons 1-2 had a much better setting, that was undermined by being set too close to TOS for DIS to stand on its own. Seasons 3-4 on the other hand, while allowing DIS to stand on its own two feet, is really bleak. S1-2 for me.
Tech: The tech of S3 & 4 is more appropriate for their setting compared to some of the tech seen for S1 & 2.
Mystery: The red bursts and the DMA are both worthy mysteries .Tie.
Political leaders: Empress Georgiou and L’Rell are effective leaders for their respective empires, and Po was shown to be effective scientist as well as leader. Osyraa’s offer being rejected by Vance showed ineffectiveness on her part in regards to dealmaking, and Rillak is too pushy by challenging Burnham’s authority in front of everyone on the bridge. S1-2.
Pacing: DIS finally figured it out in S4 as everything from "Choose to Live" to "Rubicon" is a good watch if you binge the show. "Choose To Live", "All Is Possible", & "The Examples" in particular are a trio of classic Trek episodes and what I’ve been looking from Discovery. The rest of the episodes of the season so far (bar the finale as it hasn't been seen yet as of this writing) could have been condensed into two episodes. S3 & 4 are a complete 180 from S1.
Overall: Season 3 & 4 edge out Season 1 & 2 by a bit.
Season 2 was the definite high point for Discovery. Sure, it seemed intent of making Burnham cry her eyes out in almost every episode, but it had an adventurous, engaging spirit that Season 3 seemed intent on dialing back just a little too much for my liking. That lack of va va voom has carried through to Season 4, which I've found to be quite dry and lacking in drama. There's lots of emoting, and lots of pretty, florid speeches, but far too little in the way of action.
The first two, for sure.
The first season had its share of issues and the plot was juvenile and silly, but it still managed to be pretty fun because it didn't take itself too seriously.
Season two wasn't much better, but there were a couple of episodes that were legit top-shelf Trek.
But the last two seasons have flopped between dull mediocrity to outright awfulness. The only episode even worth a mention in future years is "Forget Me Not." But even then, while the scenes with Adira and Gray were some of the best interpersonal relations Star Trek has ever done, the rest of the episode was a bit of a bore.
The first season had its share of issues and the plot was juvenile and silly, but it still managed to be pretty fun because it didn't take itself too seriously.
Season two wasn't much better, but there were a couple of episodes that were legit top-shelf Trek.
But the last two seasons have flopped between dull mediocrity to outright awfulness. The only episode even worth a mention in future years is "Forget Me Not." But even then, while the scenes with Adira and Gray were some of the best interpersonal relations Star Trek has ever done, the rest of the episode was a bit of a bore.
I prefer the first two seasons, but I feel kind of bad about my vote because the writers have incorporated a lot of the things I was hoping for or felt should happen in the latest two seasons. And there are things I like about Seasons 3 & 4. I think Book is a great addition to the franchise and I really like the Burnham-Booker romance. The future Federation characters aren't bad either. I liked the Emerald Chain. I like Species 10-C. I like some of the new starship designs as well as the nods to Trek actors and the franchise's past. I like the new uniforms. And I like that we are getting more character development across the cast. Tilly, who I found grating in the first two seasons, came into her own in Season 3 and also was tolerable this season. Season 3's Trill episode, which delved into Adira's character was one of the best single episodes of DISCO's run, and also the CBS Trek era.
All that said, I found the first two seasons more interesting, and I think it's due to DISCO still being new, the inclusion of Pike (and to a lesser extent Number One), and the writing, more so the story structures which felt tighter and more focused (even if the end results weren't always great; I thought the season one finale was tacked on, but I didn't have much of a problem with the season 2 finale outside of how the writers contorted the story to have Sarek and Amanda visit Burnham but not Spock). Comparatively, I just thought the resolution to "The Burn" mystery was ridiculous and the Emerald Chain was wasted. I thought Species 10-C was handled much better this season, but I think it took a little too long to get there.
It sucks because Seasons 3 and 4 are pretty wide open and the series can breathe in ways it couldn't before. However, I don't think they've taken enough advantage of that.
All that said, I found the first two seasons more interesting, and I think it's due to DISCO still being new, the inclusion of Pike (and to a lesser extent Number One), and the writing, more so the story structures which felt tighter and more focused (even if the end results weren't always great; I thought the season one finale was tacked on, but I didn't have much of a problem with the season 2 finale outside of how the writers contorted the story to have Sarek and Amanda visit Burnham but not Spock). Comparatively, I just thought the resolution to "The Burn" mystery was ridiculous and the Emerald Chain was wasted. I thought Species 10-C was handled much better this season, but I think it took a little too long to get there.
It sucks because Seasons 3 and 4 are pretty wide open and the series can breathe in ways it couldn't before. However, I don't think they've taken enough advantage of that.
Rank 4: Season 1
- more plotholes than actual plot (in both global season arc and local episode stories)
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- unnatural, nonsensical dialogue
- totally unrelatable characters; euphemistically put: the persons are mere plot devices, but no characters
- designs and layouts are changed just to have it changed instead of actually updating/improving it.
- the setting is completely nonsensical: e.g. there is absolutely nothing in the story that requires this to be a prequel and wouldn't work better as a sequel. If one want to present a race of SpaceOrcs that clearly have nothing in common with Klingons and the sister of a Vulcan that clearly has nothing in common with Spock, then just do so and don't claim it to be a prequel to shoe-horn stupid name-dropping into it.
- at stake: destruction of the Federation / destruction of all of the multiverse through mycelial corruption
Rank 3: Season 2
- the global season arc does not make any sense (contradictions instead of explanations)
- mostly red hering instead of a story
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- a lot of needless, unrelated talking (like bidding farewell for an hour ... twice!) when there is a difficult task at hand, but near to no time - and then starting with the task after time basically has run up!?
- lack of important talking: actually speaking/thinking/criticising their actual (ridiculous) plans
- at least some relatable characters (Reno, Pike)
- they starting to try to update/improve designs and layouts instead of just "changing it to have it changed"
- at stake: destruction of all sentient life
Rank 2: Season 3
- the global season arc makes some sense (regarding consistency) for the first time, a great improvement, although no explanation given why/how Su'Kal was able to burn the galaxy.
- some single episodes that work quite well, but still fit into the season arc
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- the characters get more relatable; they start to actually be characters instead of weird plot devices producing nonsensical twists.
- at stake: destruction of the galaxy (or only all dilithium?)
Rank 1: Season 4
- the season arc is consistent and for the first time actually interesting.
- some of the later episodes are actually really good and add something new to the Star Trek universe that is enjoyable and intriguing.
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- they are actual discussing the problems instead of going with the first, most stupid approach (like they did in the earlier seasons).
- the characters are finally actually relatable and start to be more professional: not wasting the whole time on smalltalk about non-relevant things, instead they actually discuss the problems at hand (and mental health issues that are relevant for their performance/plans).
- the first season of DIS that is actually a valuable addition to the Star Trek universe.
- at stake: destruction of many worlds (probably most of the galaxy in long term)
Conclusion:
I agree that seasons 4 and 3 are way better than seasons 1 and 2.
Actually, season 1 was bad on initial watch and gets way worse on rewatches - since now one knows that none of the open questions and inconsistencies will get answered/solved. It's just a complete mess. Season 2 was less painful on first watch, but has some story-related rewatch problems like season 1.
So, they got better with every season. There is still quite a lot potential for improvement, but they seem to start to get how to do it.
Live long and prosper,
Norad
- more plotholes than actual plot (in both global season arc and local episode stories)
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- unnatural, nonsensical dialogue
- totally unrelatable characters; euphemistically put: the persons are mere plot devices, but no characters
- designs and layouts are changed just to have it changed instead of actually updating/improving it.
- the setting is completely nonsensical: e.g. there is absolutely nothing in the story that requires this to be a prequel and wouldn't work better as a sequel. If one want to present a race of SpaceOrcs that clearly have nothing in common with Klingons and the sister of a Vulcan that clearly has nothing in common with Spock, then just do so and don't claim it to be a prequel to shoe-horn stupid name-dropping into it.
- at stake: destruction of the Federation / destruction of all of the multiverse through mycelial corruption
Rank 3: Season 2
- the global season arc does not make any sense (contradictions instead of explanations)
- mostly red hering instead of a story
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- a lot of needless, unrelated talking (like bidding farewell for an hour ... twice!) when there is a difficult task at hand, but near to no time - and then starting with the task after time basically has run up!?
- lack of important talking: actually speaking/thinking/criticising their actual (ridiculous) plans
- at least some relatable characters (Reno, Pike)
- they starting to try to update/improve designs and layouts instead of just "changing it to have it changed"
- at stake: destruction of all sentient life
Rank 2: Season 3
- the global season arc makes some sense (regarding consistency) for the first time, a great improvement, although no explanation given why/how Su'Kal was able to burn the galaxy.
- some single episodes that work quite well, but still fit into the season arc
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- the characters get more relatable; they start to actually be characters instead of weird plot devices producing nonsensical twists.
- at stake: destruction of the galaxy (or only all dilithium?)
Rank 1: Season 4
- the season arc is consistent and for the first time actually interesting.
- some of the later episodes are actually really good and add something new to the Star Trek universe that is enjoyable and intriguing.
- some odd pacing between episodes regarding the season arc.
- they are actual discussing the problems instead of going with the first, most stupid approach (like they did in the earlier seasons).
- the characters are finally actually relatable and start to be more professional: not wasting the whole time on smalltalk about non-relevant things, instead they actually discuss the problems at hand (and mental health issues that are relevant for their performance/plans).
- the first season of DIS that is actually a valuable addition to the Star Trek universe.
- at stake: destruction of many worlds (probably most of the galaxy in long term)
Conclusion:
I agree that seasons 4 and 3 are way better than seasons 1 and 2.
Actually, season 1 was bad on initial watch and gets way worse on rewatches - since now one knows that none of the open questions and inconsistencies will get answered/solved. It's just a complete mess. Season 2 was less painful on first watch, but has some story-related rewatch problems like season 1.
So, they got better with every season. There is still quite a lot potential for improvement, but they seem to start to get how to do it.
Live long and prosper,
Norad
I remember those times online vividly. To paraphrase a quote, "And this where I came in!" To the Internet Trekkie World, that is.
IMO, they'd already course-corrected in "By Inferno's Light" and should've killed him off at the end of "Sacrifice of Angels". The problem was they didn't want to get rid of Marc Alaimo, so they kept Dukat on after he should've been written out and the ways they found to keep him on and still be part of the series became as crazy as the character himself.
They should have just had mirror Dukat take his place. Who - judging by mirror Brunt - would have been a pretty nice guy.
I have no idea if SNW or PIC Season 3 will be "good".
But, even though I've only seen the first three episodes of it, I can already say I think PIC Season 2 as a whole will be good. I'm 99+% sure I'll still think this at the end of the 10th episode. It would take a train wreck to make me think otherwise.
Seasons 1-2. Two of my favorite Trek captains now are Lorca and Pike. Discovery Pike. The storylines were more interesting and not plodding. Everyone wasn't standing around during a crisis talking about their FEEWINGZ. I don't mind thing like talking about their FEEWINGZ on their downtime, but not in the middle of an emergency.
I also think the Discovery crew should have made another jump either to a different time or dimension to keep things interesting. Two seasons max in a time/place seems to be a good interval to keep things feeling fresh/purge things that aren't working.
I also think the Discovery crew should have made another jump either to a different time or dimension to keep things interesting. Two seasons max in a time/place seems to be a good interval to keep things feeling fresh/purge things that aren't working.
Well, I guess you've seen a different season 2 than me. Difference between season 2 and 4 in these regards is that in season 2 they are pointlessly talking about it, while in season 4 they actually talk to resolve their issues.
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