Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

[Maxwell Everett]

Have you ever scanned a newspaper or magazine cutting at too high a resolution, the sort of res that's usually fine for scanning photos, but that makes a really grainy and fuzzy mess of newspaper print?

That's what a lot of TNG HD looks like. To a layman, it looks like either much of the film stock is in poor condition, or it's been scanned at too high a resolution.

Quite a few episodes I've watched from season 2 (OK, it's season 2!) have so much grain and distortion on the red of the command uniforms (usually Picard's) that the image seems to be on the verge of breaking up. That's the best I can describe it. Sorry.

I seem to be in a position now where due to the excess grain, I'm getting so disgruntled at the picture quality of a lot of these episodes, that I'm almost preferring the upscaled DVDs at 720p.

Well, considering the DVDs are objectively inferior in every possible sense compared to the Blu-rays, that's a pretty drastic thing to resort to... and so there's something either fundamentally wrong with your setup or your expectations. The film stock was actually in very good condition and it was not scanned at too high a resolution.

I don't mean this as condescending, but I assume you're hooked up via HDMI and not analog component cables, right? Have you calibrated your display -- at all? You're not viewing the episodes in a "dynamic" or "vivid" mode are you? If so, that could be unnaturally brightening the image and boosting the colors. Also, your sharpness should be set very, very low. You should not be artificially sharpening the image, that can make everything (particularly the grain) look very, very bad. And definitely turn off any DNR.

If your display is uncalibrated, start with a "movie" or "cinema" mode and tweak from there, based on the lighting conditions you're viewing the display in. That kind of a mode should be closest to a 6500 Kelvin or D65 reference color and have the best black levels. If you have a Blu-ray with a THX Optimizer, that would be better than nothing to calibrate with. They also have a free iPhone app that you can use called THX tune-up.

 

[MikeS]

I wish these televisions came out of the box setup properly. Alot of that is just jargon to me! (Although I presume my tele is ok as I love the quality of these blu-ray's)

 

[d514]

but I was still having to turn down the sharpness to alleviate the grain

Maybe that's your problem. The sharpness setting is not the same on every TV! On some TVs a sharpness setting around 50% means that no sharpness is added or removed. The picture is as sharp as it is on the Blu-ray. On other TVs every setting above 0 adds sharpness and it is not possible to make the picture softer. If the sharpness setting is too high the grain will be a lot more noticeable.

Last week, a UK seller had all 5 seasons up for sale second hand. I couldn't believe it. Why buy them in the first place?

Maybe he or she bought them just to watch the episodes again? Buying and selling is often cheaper than renting. And renting TV shows is often not possible.
Also I just read that someone sold all 5 seasons because the roof over his head is more important than TNG. He plans to buy them again when he can.

 

[Admiral Bear]

Well, considering the DVDs are objectively inferior in every possible sense compared to the Blu-rays, that's a pretty drastic thing to resort to... and so there's something either fundamentally wrong with your setup or your expectations. The film stock was actually in very good condition and it was not scanned at too high a resolution.

I don't mean this as condescending, but I assume you're hooked up via HDMI and not analog component cables, right? Have you calibrated your display -- at all? You're not viewing the episodes in a "dynamic" or "vivid" mode are you? If so, that could be unnaturally brightening the image and boosting the colors. Also, your sharpness should be set very, very low. You should not be artificially sharpening the image, that can make everything (particularly the grain) look very, very bad. And definitely turn off any DNR.

Yes, hooked up via HDMI. My TV does have a dynamic setting. It's horrible, and I never use it. I generally use the "standard" setting which I tweak if I need to. Generally, I have the colour fairly low, contrast and brightness about mid range, the sharpness set to max (it's fine with no grain on broadcast HD), and the DNR mid to high in the advanced settings.

I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell. I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.

 

[Start Wreck]

Turn sharpening off. Turn DNR off.

That's how it's supposed to look. Your eyes will adjust.

 

[trekker670]

I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell.

I must say, I'm baffled. You dislike the film grain, so you turn DNR on on your TV, but then dislike the look of the picture being DNRd so you increase sharpness to enhance what little grain is left in the DNRd picture.

What exactly is it you want the picture to look like?

I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.

The difference here is that you'll be seeing the organic film grain, where as applying DNR and then increasing sharpness, the picture you seeing is being heavily modified by a computer algorithm and producing much more of an artificial appearance than the natural grain would.

I think once you get your TV set up properly you'll be in for a nice surprise at how good TNG-HD actually looks.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think people today equate film grain with video noise. Noise isn't supposed to be there; grain is. Again, the grain is physically part of the picture; by trying to get rid of it you manipulate the picture and lose detail.

Grain is good.

 

[jimbotron]

Artificial sharpening and DNR is generally BAD. If used extremely sparingly, it could be a useful tool, but more times than not, it is used to the extreme. When heavy DNR and edge enhancement are used on a catalog title, it is because the distributor is attempting to hide the fact that a substandard master has been used. It's cheaper and faster to dust off an old master (ones previously used for cable and DVD) and heavily process it instead of doing a full remaster. Examples:

Predator: http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/2984_2_1080p.jpg

Star Trek VI: http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/adzez/Star%20Trek/e3291f42.png

Gladiator: http://i.imgur.com/JlBsD.png (thankfully this one was so bad that Universal did a remaster anyway)

 

[GameOn]

Yes, hooked up via HDMI. My TV does have a dynamic setting. It's horrible, and I never use it. I generally use the "standard" setting which I tweak if I need to. Generally, I have the colour fairly low, contrast and brightness about mid range, the sharpness set to max (it's fine with no grain on broadcast HD), and the DNR mid to high in the advanced settings.

I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell. I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.

Turn the sharpness, DNR and any other settings off completely so that you get the truest representation of the image without any "enhancements". Broadcast TV is usually too heavily compressed to preserve the original film grain and clarity of the image and any grain/noise that people see is usually due to compression artefacts.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Artificial sharpening and DNR is generally BAD. If used extremely sparingly, it could be a useful tool, but more times than not, it is used to the extreme. When heavy DNR and edge enhancement are used on a catalog title, it is because the distributor is attempting to hide the fact that a substandard master has been used.

I wonder, though, how much of their decision to use DNR is related to just providing the public what the public thinks it wants -- a grain-free picture.

 

[jimbotron]

I wonder, though, how much of their decision to use DNR is related to just providing the public what the public thinks it wants -- a grain-free picture.

It's a happy coincidence. Audiences are ignorant and studios are lazy. With film almost dead in filmmaking - only a handful of directors still use film - the issue might get worse because audiences will be even more accustomed to a grain-less appearance. The issue wouldn't be such a problem if grain removal didn't also remove texture and detail.

It's the same issue as the widescreen debate in the late 90s/early 00s all over again. Joe and Susie Walmart wanted movies that filled their 4x3 screens, and some studios were happy to oblige since they could just recycle old masters.

The reciprocal is happening now. Some are pissed that 4x3 content doesn't fill their 16x9 screens now. I suppose Citizen Kane should be colorized now while they're at it....

 

[Hober Mallow]

It's the same issue as the widescreen debate in the late 90s/early 00s all over again. Joe and Susie Walmart wanted movies that filled their 4x3 screens, and some studios were happy to oblige since they could just recycle old masters.

The reciprocal is happening now. Some are pissed that 4x3 content doesn't fill their 16x9 screens now. I suppose Citizen Kane should be colorized now while they're at it....

It seems like no matter what the shape of our TVs, there is always a vocal group who insist on chopping movies to pieces. In the 4:3 days, people wanted widescreen movies cut to fill the TV screen; today, people want old 4:3 shows cut in order to fill the screen. Kind of defeats the purpose of preserving the original movie/TV series.

 

[TheSeeker]

With film almost dead in filmmaking - only a handful of directors still use film - the issue might get worse because audiences will be even more accustomed to a grain-less appearance.

Even digital film technologies yield grain when shooting at high ISO levels in low light conditions. The "problem" of grain in the picture isn't going away just yet.

 

[ATimson]

Even digital film technologies yield grain when shooting at high ISO levels in low light conditions. The "problem" of grain in the picture isn't going away just yet.

They exhibit noise, but that's a very different thing from grain.

 

[Beta-Z]

As i understand it, grain is already part of the film material which is already there BEFORE filming anything, plus it contains valuable picture information such as color & detail.
When it's filtered out, some picture information is lost along with it.

Noise is just disturbing the actual content.
Even my cheap mobile cam produces noise, the darker the room, the higher the noise level.

 

[TheSeeker]

Even digital film technologies yield grain when shooting at high ISO levels in low light conditions. The "problem" of grain in the picture isn't going away just yet.

They exhibit noise, but that's a very different thing from grain.

Based on my experience with digital photography, the more you try to get rid of the noise the more detail you lose. It may not be grain but the effect is the same.

 

[Indysolo]

The sharpness control on your TV does not add anything. It is akin to the treble knob on your stereo. It controls high frequencies on your display. A lower setting is better, as all it does is bring out noise not meant to be seen.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Yeah, sharpness setting is just a relic of the CRT settings. On HDTV, the picture is already sharp that having such a feature is utterly worthless.

 

[Salinga]

Yeah, sharpness setting is just a relic of the CRT settings. On HDTV, the picture is already sharp that having such a feature is utterly worthless.

I would not agree: Even if the display is sharp, the source material - even if in 1080p - sometimes is not. Here an example of original TNG bluray footage additionally sharpened; it can bring out more details and emphasize edges without enhancing the grain too much (left original, right sharpened):

Source: http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=71&page=18

I have a 42" Panasonic Plasma, and I have sharpening always slightly enabled, because it enhances slightly blurry HD material like the TNG blurays.

 

[jimbotron]

It does look sharper, but it also looks artificial IMO. There have been certain BD releases that have that sharpened artificial look throughout (Back to the Future), which turns me off.