Season 3 on the Streaming Charts!

[Citiprime]

And? For all we know, this is Captain Kirk’s first time seeing a Gorn of any age. In his head, he could be thinking, "Well shit, THAT'S a Gorn?" So again, I repeat, there's nothing in this episode that goes against what we have seen in SNW.

Hell, if you want to make it even easier to swallow, maybe there's different species of Gorn? Big ones, small ones. If my Beagle and my friends Great Dane can both be called dogs, why can't there be something similar with the Gorn?

Use your imagination, for God's sake.

Not really. It adds more weight in fact.

I love the mental gymnastics one has to go through to make this fit, since it's clear watching the original episode that the Gorn are supposed to be unknown aliens. Similar to "The Devil in the Dark," part of the twist of "Arena" is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t monsters, savages, animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They're people defending their home. Just like the Horta, maybe before she started dissolving miners the Gorn could have tried communicating with the colonists. But the theme in "Arena" is the same as "The Devil in the Dark." It's about having empathy and recognizing that maybe the entire situation is a giant mistake.

And SNW's approach so far totally undercuts that. They basically present the Gorn as dangerous savages that are parasites who can't be reasoned with. That's how they miss the point of "Arena."

The bigger issue is there was no need to do any of this, since they in no way justify it through story. I also love that you're throwing out "use your imagination" to defend using the Gorn for a SNW approach that just copies and pastes Alien and Predator, where the species you're showing onscreen only attachment to the name "Gorn" is that they're lizards.

Also, if you want to copy and paste Alien and Predator, why doesn't the SNW writing team that you and others are spending so much time defending use their damn imaginations to think up something original?

 

[fireproof78]

I love the mental gymnastics one has to go through to make this fit, since it's clear watching the original episode that the Gorn are supposed to be unknown aliens. Similar to "The Devil in the Dark," part of the twist of "Arena" is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t monsters, savages, animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They're people defending their home. Just like the Horta, maybe before she started dissolving miners the Gorn could have tried communicating with the colonists. But the theme in "Arena" is the same as "The Devil in the Dark." It's about having empathy and recognizing that maybe the entire situation is a giant mistake.

And SNW's approach so far totally undercuts that. They basically present the Gorn as dangerous savages that are parasites who can't be reasoned with. That's how they miss the point of "Arena."

The bigger issue is there was no need to do any of this, since they in no way justify it through story. I also love that you're throwing out "use your imagination" to defend using the Gorn for a SNW approach that just copies and pastes Alien and Predator, where the species you're showing onscreen only attachment to the name "Gorn" is that they're lizards.

Also, if you want to copy and paste Alien and Predator, why doesn't the SNW writing team that you and others are spending so much time defending use their damn imaginations to think up something original?

I'll defend because I like it and am willing to make it work. Just like PICARD season 3.

And Trek fans do not want original. So, no I won't expect them to do that because the "not real Trek" refrain has broken that record.

And finally, in case you were unaware I freaking loathe the Gorn so their additions to SNW is awful. But, it's still Trek and it fits with TOS close enough to satisfy my persnickity nature.

And SNW's approach so far totally undercuts that. They basically present the Gorn as dangerous savages that are parasites who can't be reasoned with. That's how they miss the point of "Arena

So infants, got it.

 

[Citiprime]

So infants, got it.

No, not just infants. Also, adults in starships willing to murder everyone not Gorn.

LA'AN: "The Federation teaches that if we can find a way to empathize with an enemy, then they can one day become our friends. They're wrong. Some things in this universe are just plain evil. Have you ever seen eyes that are both dead and hungry at the same time? To them, humans are just walking feed bags of flesh, bone, and jelly. The Gorn trigger a primitive, ancient terror in warm-blooded species. We are prey. And when they hunt, they're unrelenting. The truth is, plenty of people have seen the Gorn. They just don't live long enough to talk about it."​

That's the exact opposite message from what "Arena" tries to get across, and so far what we've seen onscreen agrees more with La'an than with "Arena."

 

[fireproof78]

No, not just infants. Also, adults in starships willing to murder everyone not Gorn.

LA'AN: "The Federation teaches that if we can find a way to empathize with an enemy, then they can one day become our friends. They're wrong. Some things in this universe are just plain evil. Have you ever seen eyes that are both dead and hungry at the same time? To them, humans are just walking feed bags of flesh, bone, and jelly. The Gorn trigger a primitive, ancient terror in warm-blooded species. We are prey. And when they hunt, they're unrelenting. The truth is, plenty of people have seen the Gorn. They just don't live long enough to talk about it."​

That's the exact opposite message from what "Arena" tries to get across, and so far what we've seen onscreen agrees more with La'an than with "Arena."

Both can be true.

Also, Sisko had a similar attitude about Dukat, so strikes me as consistent at all points.

 

[cal888]

But that's me. I'm just trying to pick the brain of someone on the opposite side of the street.

In brief... it feels like a bizarre mashup of TOS, DISCOVERY, and THE ORVILLE. The characters are way, way too casual and "present day", to the point of being actively annoying. Pike is no way like the original Pike from "The Cage". Disco-Spock just doesn't feel like Spock, and the SNW-Chapel should have just been an original character. It took me five months to watch a few episodes in small chunks before giving up entirely.

Literally the only thing Picard seasom 3 did "better" then the other newer series, is it maintained the look, somewhat, of TNG. I say somewhat, because you still got the dark bridge sets, but now with LCARS. Take away the Ent-D, LCARS, and a few low detail ship models, and it looks no different from the rest.

Couldn't the same be said for PICARD season 2? But the tone, characters, writing, and integration with past lore was all noticeably different as well. Getting the production design right in this case just correlated with getting many other aspects right as well thanks to the successful efforts of Terry Matalas.

I've mentioned this before, but if you put Discovery and her crew in place of the various TNG assets, and gave them a similar plot line, I have absolutely zero doubt that a certain segment of the fandom would rip it to shreds.

It's not just the plot and production design though, it's the character work and writing. So if you have decades invested in certain characters, it will just land differently. One reason PICARD season 1 cut differently than DISCOVERY was having Patrick Stewart, Jeri Ryan, etc onboard, in which case people will be extra critical of the writing/character portrayals than with newly introduced blank slates.

I'll defend because I like it and am willing to make it work. Just like PICARD season 3.

And Trek fans do not want original. So, no I won't expect them to do that because the "not real Trek" refrain has broken that record.

Can you make TMP, TWOK, TNG, and ENT all work then?

 

[fireproof78]

Can you make TMP, TWOK, TNG, and ENT all work then?

Sure if I'm willing to work at it.

Pike is no way like the original Pike from "The Cage".

Point of order: the whole point of the Cage is that he wasn't acting like himself. He was depressed angry and wounded.

 

[HellRod]

adults in starships willing to murder everyone not Gorn.

Isn't that exactly what they did to Cestus III? At this point in SNW, we have no idea what motivations the Gorn have. Trek being Trek, I'm 100% we'll dive deeper into that topic in future episodes.

That's the exact opposite message from what "Arena" tries to get across, and so far what we've seen onscreen agrees more with La'an than with "Arena."

La'an is also PTS'D as hell in that regard. I would imagine, regardless of the Gorn motivations, watching your family be eaten, might have a negative impact on your opinion of a species. Her vision is, understandably cloudy.

Think of it like Kirk and the Klingons. "Let them die," it's exactly the opinion typical of a Federation Captain. But, we get why he felt that way, because characters in the 23rd century were flawed individuals. It's one of the things I like most about the 23rd century setting.

 

[fireproof78]

La'an is also PTS'D as hell in that regard. I would imagine, regardless of the Gorn motivations, watching your family be eaten, might have a negative impact on your opinion of a species. Her vision is, understandably cloudy.

I love how La'an and Kirk's opinions are generalized to Starfleet as a whole. Almost like generalizing about the Gorn as a whole.

Or Trek fan opinions.

 

[HellRod]

I love the mental gymnastics one has to go through to make this fit

Welcome to Star Trek! Have you been with us before?

The characters are way, way too casual and "present day"

So....... it's like The Original Series. Gotcha.

Pike is no way like the original Pike from "The Cage"

as pointed out by fireproof78, Pike was "not himself."

Terry Matalas

Sure was nice of Alex Kurtzman to hire him.

 

[cal888]

So....... it's like The Original Series. Gotcha.

Well, not exactly. TOS had a formal chain of command. The crew were believable as professionals.

Sure was nice of Alex Kurtzman to hire him.

Sometimes even a broken clock is right... and if he just acts as a pass through while letting Terry continue to do his thing, he'll get to share in the success. We do have the numbers from the OP that demonstrates this.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, not exactly. TOS had a formal chain of command. The crew were believable as professionals.

Not always. Kirk could be an unrelenting dick. Glancing at scenes from Corbomite Maneuver reminded me of his brusque nature. And he still talked like a 60s era dude.

 

[Lordcommanderdarkwolf]

My mum watch TOS reruns in the UK in the 1970s and she thought it look outdated and gundam has been rebooted for decades and is doing just fine.

 

[Tuskin38]

We do have the numbers from the OP that demonstrates this.

Which is a pointless comparison because we have no numbers for the other series.

They didn’t start tracking Paramount+ until this year. We have no numbers for the other Trek’s.

Just Paramount’s word that SNW was their best Trek series.

Well, not exactly. TOS had a formal chain of command. The crew were believable as professionals.

So does SNW.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Has this thread become all about SNW? Maybe you guys should take your own hint.

 

[Campe]

It’s interesting we’re discussing chains of command and saying how well Picard season 3 got it right when the entire story hinges on Picard and Riker seeing the chain of command and throwing it out the window.

 

[Drunk Superman]

No, they were not.

A key point in that episode is the possibility the Federation has (unintentionally) invaded Gorn space by settling on Cestus III, and the Gorn reaction, instead of being just that of "alien monsters," was of a people defending themselves.

KIRK [on viewscreen]: You butchered helpless human beings
GORN [OC]: We destroyed invaders, as I shall destroy you!

MCCOY: Can that be true? Was Cestus III an intrusion on their space?​

SPOCK: It may well be possible, Doctor. We know very little about that section of the galaxy.​

MCCOY: Then we could be in the wrong.​

SPOCK: Perhaps. That is something best decided by diplomats.​

MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.​

SPOCK: Yes.​

And how Kirk proves humanity is more civilized than the Metrons believe...

KIRK: No. No, I won't kill you. Maybe you thought you were protecting yourself when you attacked the outpost. (He throws the dagger away, stands up and shouts to the sky)​

KIRK: No, I won't kill him! Do you hear? You'll have to get your entertainment someplace else! (The Gorn disappears, and a young blond boy in a white shift appears instead.)​

KIRK: You're a Metron?

METRON: Does my appearance surprise you, Captain?​

Kind of proves my point, actually.

 

[HellRod]

We do have the numbers from the OP that demonstrates this.

Which is a pointless comparison because we have no numbers for the other series.

They didn’t start tracking Paramount+ until this year. We have no numbers for the other Trek

They really love to leave out that detail, don't they?

 

[No Grave Marked]

I think a HUGE point of disagreement between the people who claim the appeal of Picard season 3 is a dead end of "nostalgia" that can't be replicated, and those that think it signifies a course correction that could be replicated for a series like Legacy is the idea of tone, continuity, and aesthetics.

I think a big difference that has been present since Discovery premiered, and Paramount/CBS has decreed it's in the same continuity as everything else, has been how distracting it has been for **some** fans that a lot it doesn't seems to fit and it's distracting. And I think a lot of the fans of Picard season 3 and advocates of Legacy are arguing part of the true appeal of this final season was having a Star Trek series where everything felt familiar and like a TNG-era episode of television.

And for a significant chunk of fans, that's what they've arguably been yearning for, instead of having to adjust to a bunch of producers thinking that they need to "modernize" everything and leave the audience to figure out how it all fits together. That it wasn't just the TNG cast reunion, since if it was just about seeing old TNG characters in a nostalgic way seasons 1 and 2 should have been just as popular with having Picard and Data. Arguably, it was about having a visual, story, and tone continuity that you could have beyond the TNG characters that viewers and a significant chunk of Star Trek fans found appealing.

But to be fair, it wasn't like a TNG episode or story of the '90s Berman and Braga era as there was plenty of conflict between the main characters, and they were written more like TOS characters with respect to their interactions with each other (which has a TOS fan myself is why I liked Picard season 3 myself); and in fact the character interactions are like most of the other character interactions in Kurtzman Trek.

But yes I'm also one of the ones who believe that the big streaming viewing draw was the fact that it was the original TNG crew getting together for one final Adventure; and no other Trek series besides TOS could pull that off with the original actors (And with respect to TOS there are only three original main actors remaining, and I doubt Shatner would agree to reprise anything without a huge salary beyond what Paramount+ would be currently willing to pay.)

The above said it also shows why Star Trek strange new worlds is the second most watched Kurtzman Trek series on Paramount+, as it includes some recast iconic characters; but also with the recast Pike and Number One characters, they are both popular with fans and have been for years; but with respect to screen time, they each have very little in previous on-screen continuity to deal with having only appeared in effectively one episode of the original series. SNW is also helped by the fact that it has in fact introduced a couple of new characters that have gone over very well with Star Trek fandom in general. So well yes it does rely on elements of nostalgia; it's not a headlong Deep dive/drowning level of nostalgia unlike Picard season 3.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s interesting we’re discussing chains of command and saying how well Picard season 3 got it right when the entire story hinges on Picard and Riker seeing the chain of command and throwing it out the window.

Well, if Picard does it its ok.

 

[HellRod]

Well, of Picard does it its ok.

And by extension, if Matalas does it, it's ok.