Season 3 of Enterprise as good as many DS9 seasons?
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
I agree that ENT season 3 is the best after DS9. It was really great to end an episode of Trek and be dying to know what would happen next, it was something which had been missing from the franchise after DS9 ended. I can forgive its many shortcomings and continuity problems because it was so entertaining.
But DS9 will always be the better show (including season 1-3) because it was more character oriented and there was just more characters for the writers to play with. Plus, Dolim is nowhere near the villain that Dukat was.
But DS9 will always be the better show (including season 1-3) because it was more character oriented and there was just more characters for the writers to play with. Plus, Dolim is nowhere near the villain that Dukat was.
I agree DS 9 is superior b/c of its superior characters and ENT had some serious continuity problems and they could have had alot more fun w/the series, still it was highly entertaining.
It was satisfying to see good Trek after the complete failure of Nemesis and how horrible Voyager was.
So IMO, S3 of ENT stands out as the best Trek of this decade
Dude!
I dunno, DS9 S1-S3 are pretty bad at times, and many (but not all) of the real DS9 clunkers are in that time period. ENT S3, on the other hand, is really consistently good from start to finish. I personally think ENT S3 rates among the top of modern ST seasons from any of the shows. ENT S4 is also really well done and stands up well against the best of DS9, VOY, and TNG. It is too easy to remember the great DS9 eps and forget how awkward the show was at the begining, as well as towards the end of the show with the endless holodeck episodes, which drove many away. Also, when VOY was bad it was really bad, but the last 3 seasons really had them hitting their stride.
I guess that overall what I am saying is that all of these shows have good and bad periods. Even poor, blasted ENT had two really great seasons, IMHO. This poster counts himself as a fan of all of these shows, of note.
I guess that overall what I am saying is that all of these shows have good and bad periods. Even poor, blasted ENT had two really great seasons, IMHO. This poster counts himself as a fan of all of these shows, of note.
Have you not seen ENT-S 4? I thought that was the best trek! and with all due respect, I think if ENT was allowed to compleate it's 7 year run it would TIE with DS9 as best TREK series.
I thought some of ENT season 3 had the same problem as DS9's D-war-- there was a rather important conflict brewing and occurring, but not enough of the episodes were focused on it. And T'Pol's druggie thing hurt it for me.
But over all, I liked ENT season 3- the Xindi conflict... and indeed ENT in general for the most part, at least as much as DS9-1-3 and maybe more... and maybe even more than half the episodes of DS9 4-7...
Yeah, I wish ENT had gotten 7 seasons- pity they stopped it when they did...
But over all, I liked ENT season 3- the Xindi conflict... and indeed ENT in general for the most part, at least as much as DS9-1-3 and maybe more... and maybe even more than half the episodes of DS9 4-7...
Yeah, I wish ENT had gotten 7 seasons- pity they stopped it when they did...
Aside from 1-2 episodes that were mediocre, I think Enterprise's 3rd season is one of the best story arcs I've ever seen. The Occupation of DS9 was equally as good though.
You never know, If this new trek film is big they may just do some direct to dvd ENTERPRISE movies?Plus if this J.J. TREK is a HIT! and there's enough demand it may just happen!
Now you may say,but they sold all the sets! TRUE, but I always figured the NX-O1 was going to get a refitt after DEMONS anyway. Also maybe the best way to explain the continuity problems( A IN UNIVERSE REASON, we all now the real reason is lazy wrighting) might be due to the fact ENT was takeing place in the J.J.VERSE?
Good God! 
The DS9 forum has entered The Twilight Zone.
You folks who are new to this board have no idea how bizarre this conversation is, given the forum that it's been posted in.
NO
IDEA.
Anyhoo....carry on.
*walks away shaking her head in shock*
The DS9 forum has entered The Twilight Zone.
You folks who are new to this board have no idea how bizarre this conversation is, given the forum that it's been posted in.
NO
IDEA.
Anyhoo....carry on.
*walks away shaking her head in shock*
Photon, I agree with you. Though I don't think S3 of ENT is as strong as DS9's finest, seasons 6 and 7, it is one of the best seasons of modern Trek. I am also a real fan of ENT's season 4. Those two seasons provided me with something I had missed since DS9 went off the air.
Amen
I never liked the third season of Enterprise. Its fourth season was far superior, but not even in the same league as any of DS9. The heart of the matter is, Enterprise's characters were still dull.
I would more or less agree with this post. Seasons 3 & 4 of Enterprise were as good if not superior to the best of DS9. That six weeks between Azati Prime and Damage were tough.
Seasons 1 and 2 were as good as anything TNG/VOY offered but not quite up to DS9 greatness.
Seasons 1 and 2 were as good as anything TNG/VOY offered but not quite up to DS9 greatness.
I'm not a fan of ENT season 4 because 1) it was fan-wank and 2) they kept on ruining the endings on each of the story arcs.
Borderland: Okay
Cold Station 12: Fantastic
The Augments: Poor
The Forge: Great
Awakening: Amazing
Kir'Shara: Poor
Babel One: Okay
United: Great
The Aenar: Terrible
Affliction: Average
Divergence: Urgh
Demons: Good
Terra Prime: Not as good
For this reason I would say that season 3 is the best and season 4 is equal to the first season (and maybe even a little behind it).
Borderland: Okay
Cold Station 12: Fantastic
The Augments: Poor
The Forge: Great
Awakening: Amazing
Kir'Shara: Poor
Babel One: Okay
United: Great
The Aenar: Terrible
Affliction: Average
Divergence: Urgh
Demons: Good
Terra Prime: Not as good
For this reason I would say that season 3 is the best and season 4 is equal to the first season (and maybe even a little behind it).
Let me begin by saying: Not even close.
Now let me elaborate a little. Yes, DS9 has had its ups and downs. And for all intents and purposes, I definitely feel that seasons 1 -3 are not on the same level as seasons 4 - 7. Having said that, it's easy to forget all the great material in those early seasons (e.g. Emissary, Duet, the Circle Trilogy, Through the Looking Glass / Improbably Cause, to name but a few highlights). In the final analysis, I think the good easily outweighs the bad.
What's really important to that is that there was already very strong character building going on in the first three seasons. You really got to know these people. And it was really interesting to see them get involved in the unfolding conflict / war. Also, the DS9 universe is being mapped out very strongly in those seasons, in particular with reference to Bajor and Cardassia. It is a reach playing field that would benefit the show later on.
If you look at DS9 from start to finish, although it's not as strongly serialized as, for example, B5 or nuBSG, you can clearly see how very much the characters as well as the universe itself change throughout. And they don't just change 'for fun'. There are events and developments that take place which clearly lead from one point to the other. That's very rewarding to watch and give the show a lot of rewatch value, I think.
Another point is that the show had a very, very strong writing staff. Yes, they could misfire. But when they were on a roll, they were incredible IMHO. You'd have multiple episodes dealing with multiple storylines at times, and it would feel like they were juggling them ever so easily. You know it's a good thing when an episode cuts away from one storyline and you're not annoyed but rivetted because you want to know how that storyline continues as well...
I watched and enjoyed S3 of ENT. I have to point out that at that point I had already given up on the show and was watching, really, for pure Trek nostalgia. I wanted some new Trek, and that's what was there.
There are a number of reasons why I gave up on the show in the first place (this is relevant to the thread so I will quickly elaborate). First of all, none of the characters appealed to me. Even the doctor (though I probably still liked him most next to Trip) never managed to engage me the way the other Trek doctors did. They all just seemed incredibly bland, and you never really knew who they were. Worst of all, I found the captain incredibly bland and unconvincing as a figure of authority even though I really like Bakula and was looking forward to him in the part.
Essentially, you'd see the characters interact on the screen, but it never felt vibrant or alive to me. It felt like hollow shells saying stuff that had no relevance to them or the others or the show itself, for that matter.
As for the show itself, well, it just seemed to have no point, nothing that truly set it apart from TNG or VOY. And that's a shame since the setting SHOULD have really set it apart. But the show never seemed interested in that.
Instead of using the building of the Federation and Starfleet as a focal point around everything else could naturally evolve, you had the usual space exploration and weird aliens along with lots of bickering between humans and Vulcans. The ship and its crew were literally going nowhere.
To make matters worse, I felt the writing was really, really bad, atrocious, in fact. I found myself having a really hard time sitting through many of the episodes because it felt so embarassing to watch. And some episodes I didn't sit through as a consequence.
So my starting point for ENT S3 was not a very good one. And the main problem - one that just wasn't resolvable from my point of view - was that the characters were already too far gone. The first two seasons had damaged them beyond redemption in my book.
Watching S3 I basically chose to ignore seasons 1 and 2 as best I could. But, naturally, that also meant that there was no real backstory to these people (there isn't with seasons 1 and 2 either IMHO, but that's another matter). So while it was fun watching them go through the motions, it never stood the chance of being able to involve me the way DS9 was able to season through season. DS9 benefitted from its own hard work. ENT faltered due to a lack of it (note: I'm not referring to the writers directly. It's very possible the creative staff on ENT worked very, very hard).
As I watched ENT S3 I just wondered why they didn't start like this. DS9 had given them precedent. And they had a backstory that fit very well with serialized storytelling. But, alas, this was S3 and not the beginning of the show.
The story told throughout S3 was definitely engaging and had some pretty tough moments for the crew. I remember the Captain deciding to pillage another ship, for example, or T'Pol and her addiction. Those were interesting moments because they really challenged many 'Trek' assumptions and dealt with morally and ethically difficult subjects.
And yet, as a whole, I clearly felt this never came close to what DS9 was doing. Yes, it was good story, yes it was well told. But DS9 had an excellent story and was excellently told, in my view anyway.
So while ENT S3 was entertaining and certainly more fun than bad DS9, it never even came close to good or great DS9 for me. Too much damaged had been done by S1 and S2. And without a backstory built throughout the seasons, it just felt a lot weaker than it could have. I'd also argue that the writing was ok and sometimes pretty good. But I felt it never excelled much like the show itself never excelled IMHO.
I've actually never seen S4 of ENT. Who knows? Maybe someday I will. But really, there isn't that much making me want to. Another bout of nostalgia may do the trick. But ENT on its own hasn't really done enough for me to want to revisited that particular part of Trek lore. And as I've said with respect to S3, I feel the characters have simply been damaged beyond repair. I just can't watch them and take them seriously as characters.
And what good is a show if the characters do nothing for you?
Now let me elaborate a little. Yes, DS9 has had its ups and downs. And for all intents and purposes, I definitely feel that seasons 1 -3 are not on the same level as seasons 4 - 7. Having said that, it's easy to forget all the great material in those early seasons (e.g. Emissary, Duet, the Circle Trilogy, Through the Looking Glass / Improbably Cause, to name but a few highlights). In the final analysis, I think the good easily outweighs the bad.
What's really important to that is that there was already very strong character building going on in the first three seasons. You really got to know these people. And it was really interesting to see them get involved in the unfolding conflict / war. Also, the DS9 universe is being mapped out very strongly in those seasons, in particular with reference to Bajor and Cardassia. It is a reach playing field that would benefit the show later on.
If you look at DS9 from start to finish, although it's not as strongly serialized as, for example, B5 or nuBSG, you can clearly see how very much the characters as well as the universe itself change throughout. And they don't just change 'for fun'. There are events and developments that take place which clearly lead from one point to the other. That's very rewarding to watch and give the show a lot of rewatch value, I think.
Another point is that the show had a very, very strong writing staff. Yes, they could misfire. But when they were on a roll, they were incredible IMHO. You'd have multiple episodes dealing with multiple storylines at times, and it would feel like they were juggling them ever so easily. You know it's a good thing when an episode cuts away from one storyline and you're not annoyed but rivetted because you want to know how that storyline continues as well...
I watched and enjoyed S3 of ENT. I have to point out that at that point I had already given up on the show and was watching, really, for pure Trek nostalgia. I wanted some new Trek, and that's what was there.
There are a number of reasons why I gave up on the show in the first place (this is relevant to the thread so I will quickly elaborate). First of all, none of the characters appealed to me. Even the doctor (though I probably still liked him most next to Trip) never managed to engage me the way the other Trek doctors did. They all just seemed incredibly bland, and you never really knew who they were. Worst of all, I found the captain incredibly bland and unconvincing as a figure of authority even though I really like Bakula and was looking forward to him in the part.
Essentially, you'd see the characters interact on the screen, but it never felt vibrant or alive to me. It felt like hollow shells saying stuff that had no relevance to them or the others or the show itself, for that matter.
As for the show itself, well, it just seemed to have no point, nothing that truly set it apart from TNG or VOY. And that's a shame since the setting SHOULD have really set it apart. But the show never seemed interested in that.
Instead of using the building of the Federation and Starfleet as a focal point around everything else could naturally evolve, you had the usual space exploration and weird aliens along with lots of bickering between humans and Vulcans. The ship and its crew were literally going nowhere.
To make matters worse, I felt the writing was really, really bad, atrocious, in fact. I found myself having a really hard time sitting through many of the episodes because it felt so embarassing to watch. And some episodes I didn't sit through as a consequence.
So my starting point for ENT S3 was not a very good one. And the main problem - one that just wasn't resolvable from my point of view - was that the characters were already too far gone. The first two seasons had damaged them beyond redemption in my book.
Watching S3 I basically chose to ignore seasons 1 and 2 as best I could. But, naturally, that also meant that there was no real backstory to these people (there isn't with seasons 1 and 2 either IMHO, but that's another matter). So while it was fun watching them go through the motions, it never stood the chance of being able to involve me the way DS9 was able to season through season. DS9 benefitted from its own hard work. ENT faltered due to a lack of it (note: I'm not referring to the writers directly. It's very possible the creative staff on ENT worked very, very hard).
As I watched ENT S3 I just wondered why they didn't start like this. DS9 had given them precedent. And they had a backstory that fit very well with serialized storytelling. But, alas, this was S3 and not the beginning of the show.
The story told throughout S3 was definitely engaging and had some pretty tough moments for the crew. I remember the Captain deciding to pillage another ship, for example, or T'Pol and her addiction. Those were interesting moments because they really challenged many 'Trek' assumptions and dealt with morally and ethically difficult subjects.
And yet, as a whole, I clearly felt this never came close to what DS9 was doing. Yes, it was good story, yes it was well told. But DS9 had an excellent story and was excellently told, in my view anyway.
So while ENT S3 was entertaining and certainly more fun than bad DS9, it never even came close to good or great DS9 for me. Too much damaged had been done by S1 and S2. And without a backstory built throughout the seasons, it just felt a lot weaker than it could have. I'd also argue that the writing was ok and sometimes pretty good. But I felt it never excelled much like the show itself never excelled IMHO.
I've actually never seen S4 of ENT. Who knows? Maybe someday I will. But really, there isn't that much making me want to. Another bout of nostalgia may do the trick. But ENT on its own hasn't really done enough for me to want to revisited that particular part of Trek lore. And as I've said with respect to S3, I feel the characters have simply been damaged beyond repair. I just can't watch them and take them seriously as characters.
And what good is a show if the characters do nothing for you?
I'm of pretty much the same opinion. Season 3 of ENT is more along the lines of what I'd hoped for from the series (I mentioned elsewhere that I'd hoped it borrowed more from DS9 than VOY). Season 4 spends too much time playing catch-up, trying to push ENT more towards TOS, and I think it was at the cost of some much needed character development and possibly some more interesting stories picking up on threads within the series - More Archer/Shran stories, introduce the Tellarites gradually, not as quickly as they did.
I think this is where DS9 excels. It took time to build up a large and complex universe, with many characters. Even in the midst of the Dominion War, we still got some pretty good character stories out of it. ENT was approaching that, but got cut short before it could really kick off in earnest.
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