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Scotty and his military comment

And to the extent that any one of those roles could be considered primary, "military" isn't it.

I disagree, as you well know. Just stating that it isn't something over and over won't convince anyone.
Indeed.

Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization."
Belz: "I disagree!"
Gardner: "I'm surprised Archer requested military officers to the Enterprise..."
Belz: "Starfleet IS the military, stupid!"
Scotty: "This is clearly a military mission! Is that what we are now?"
Belz: "You were always a military! What are you talking about?"

You don't agree with what Starfleet says about itself, so why would I expect you to believe me? :vulcan:
 
What we saw in TWOK and TUC is very consistent with Starfleet of TOS.
Quite a few fans at the time didn't think so; the reaction was quite mixed, and in some ways almost as hostile as the reaction to Abrams trek.

OTOH, the depiction in TMP is much closer to TOS than any of the sequels, and what we're seeing there doesn't appear to be a military organization either (especially in contrast to TWOK and TUC).

Then again, TWOK and TUC are much better movies. IMH0.

(Hey, it had to be said!)

I'm not sure we should be taking our cues from TMP. Lord knows the later movies didn't! :)
 
What we saw in TWOK and TUC is very consistent with Starfleet of TOS.
Quite a few fans at the time didn't think so; the reaction was quite mixed, and in some ways almost as hostile as the reaction to Abrams trek.

OTOH, the depiction in TMP is much closer to TOS than any of the sequels, and what we're seeing there doesn't appear to be a military organization either (especially in contrast to TWOK and TUC).

Then again, TWOK and TUC are much better movies. IMH0.

(Hey, it had to be said!)

I'm not sure we should be taking our cues from TMP. Lord knows the later movies didn't! :)
TMP was a better movie, to be sure, but TWOK and TUC were much more entertaining.:techman:
 
Quite a few fans at the time didn't think so; the reaction was quite mixed, and in some ways almost as hostile as the reaction to Abrams trek.

OTOH, the depiction in TMP is much closer to TOS than any of the sequels, and what we're seeing there doesn't appear to be a military organization either (especially in contrast to TWOK and TUC).

Then again, TWOK and TUC are much better movies. IMH0.

(Hey, it had to be said!)

I'm not sure we should be taking our cues from TMP. Lord knows the later movies didn't! :)
TMP was a better movie, to be sure, but TWOK and TUC were much more entertaining.:techman:

Not convinced TMP is the better film (good intentions only go so far), but I'm glad we can agree on the entertainment value of the TWOK and TUC!
 
(How exactly it was portrayed on TNG is, arguably, a different topic--which isn't really relevant where the new movies are concerned, since they're based on TOS more than the later shows.)

Agreed.

But even in the later shows, Starfleet carries out military missions all the time. Would we send NOAA out to stand toe-to-toe with a Russian nuclear submarine, as we've seen the Enterprise do several times with the Romulan warbirds during TNG? Twice in the first season when Roddenberry was running the show.
I had to think about this because the NOAA links really stuck in my eye here.

As I said before, the singular reason you wouldn't send NOAA into combat is because their ships have no weapons. When you add weapons to those ships, the difference between NOAA and Starfleet vanishes altogether.

But it's more than that. The similarities are so jarring that you almost wonder if "NOAA with weapons" is what the producers had in mind all along.

What really jumped at me was this:
The network and computer systems aboard the Ron Brown are used for everything from sensor acquisition and data analysis to administration and payroll. Nearly all of the ship's scientific devices are integrated into an on board oceanographic system called the Scientific Computing System (SCS). The SCS is a network that collects, stores, processes, retrieves, and sends oceanographic data from all the navigation and environmental sensors, bathymetric sonar systems, and other mission sensors. Internet access is readily available on the ship.
This same passage could just as easily refer to a Starfleet vessel:

The network and computer systems aboard the Enterprise are used for everything from sensor acquisition and data analysis to administration and payroll. Nearly all of the ship's scientific devices are integrated into an on board astrometric system called the Library Computer System. The LCS is a network that collects, stores, processes, retrieves, and sends astrometric data from all the navigation and environmental sensors, stellar cartography systems, and other mission sensors. Computer access is readily available on the ship.
NOAA vessels devote a huge amount of their internal space to large specialized laboratories. Their sensors are optimized for mapping the sea floor, analysis of oceanographic phenomenon and examination of living creatures encountered in their voyages. Their auxiliary craft are highly versatile and they have a wide variety of scientific probes. Their officers corps is a Federal Uniformed Service with a navy-style rank structure and has no enlisted ranks. (Hint Hint!). As a uniformed service they are technically equivalent to the Coast Guard or the Navy such that providing them with defensive armaments would technically be legal under the Geneva Conventions. Moreover, NOAA has been known to name several of its vessels after famous exploration ships and/or famous explorers (e.g. the MV Neil Armstrong).

Their STATED goal is exploration and scientific research, which -- like Starfleet -- their ships spend most of their time doing. This is also very much UNLIKE the U.S. Navy, who -- with the singular exception of NR-1 -- hasn't conducted a purely scientific expedition since 1957 and whose exploration activities have since been reduced to a support role for NASA.


When it comes down to, in the end, is that NOAA would be almost IDENTICAL to Starfleet if their ships were armed. I strongly believe that if Earth's oceans possessed an abundance of pirates, giant squads, homicidal mermaids, Lovecraftian sea monsters and sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads, NOAA vessels probably WOULD be armed. This, finally, explains why NX-01 completely neglected to install or test any of its main armaments until they were already well into their mission: The RV Atlantis wouldn't need them either unless they thought raids by genetically engineered terrorists were going to be a routine hazard.
 
The fact is, whichever side of the fence you are on, Starfleet does not have a equivalent to any modern military. It's mission purview is so outside of any Earth-bound experience, it makes any direct comparison impossible.

It has been referred to ON SCREEN as both a military organization AND non military. Most of the military evidence comes from the TOS era, like Kirk specifically claiming he's a soldier, them using military courts-martial etc, a science-vs-military argument in TWOK. Roddenberry's original pitch included the reference to Horatio Hornblower, stories of a military officer on a military vessel. How much of that was his real intent, or just flim-flam to try to sell the series to TV execs who wanted an action show, I doubt we will ever know.

What is plain is that his statments then changed, and everyone tried to conform to the new "not-military" directive.

The argument does seem to just be going around and around in circles, and IMHO it will never lead to a true consensus as all we can do is state the "it is" and "it isn't" statements, both of which are just as valid as the other.

Starfleet is therefore either a military organization, who due to the nature of a space service, spend most of their time in an exploratory and/or scientific role.

Or an exploratory/scientific organisation, who due to the nature of a space service, are also responsible to undertake the responsibilities of the military arm of The Federation.
 
Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization."
Belz: "I disagree!"
Gardner: "I'm surprised Archer requested military officers to the Enterprise..."
Belz: "Starfleet IS the military, stupid!"
Scotty: "This is clearly a military mission! Is that what we are now?"
Belz: "You were always a military! What are you talking about?"

You don't agree with what Starfleet says about itself, so why would I expect you to believe me? :vulcan:

You know, two can play the cherry-picking game, as you've well seen in this thread, so why do you still insist on playing it ?

I'll offer once more TUC as a counter-example: as soon as the Klingon peace prospect is brought up, someone mentioned they might mothball Starfleet. I wonder why they'd say that, right ?
 
I agree. It is BOTH depending on, like other Trek related conflicts, the demands of the story being told at the time.

Isn't this why TOS isn't consistent within itself, it placed the needs of the story over continuity?
 
Heh. This entire debate reminds me of something Mimi Panitch wrote at least a decade ago, that being a Star Trek editor was like being the Pope during a period of extreme doctrinal dispute. Everybody interprets the sacred texts slightly differently--and are convinced that all other interpretations are heresy. :)
Sounds familiar, that does.
 
The Jewish sages who wrote the Talmud wrote that the Old Testament could be interpreted in four different ways. They were:
* Peshat - simple, literal interpretation of the work
* Remez - hints and allusions in the work
* Drush - deeper meanings in the work
* Sod - esoteric, mystical meanings in the work

I feel that many discussions of Star Trek often work at the Peshat, Remez, and, occasionally, Drush levels. Rarely, I have seen people working at the Sod level.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/...alid-methods-used-to-interpret-the-Torah.html
 
Starfleet is therefore either a military organization, who due to the nature of a space service, spend most of their time in an exploratory and/or scientific role.

Or an exploratory/scientific organisation, who due to the nature of a space service, are also responsible to undertake the responsibilities of the military arm of The Federation.

That sounds about right.
 
Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.
 
I'll offer once more TUC as a counter-example: as soon as the Klingon peace prospect is brought up, someone mentioned they might mothball Starfleet.
Which was a strawman, not a serious suggestion, considering Spock never said anything about the ships, only the neutral zone outposts.

It's a bit like when someone suggests "I think we should pull out of Afghanistan" and somebody replies "You mean we should let the terrorists win?"
 
Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.
Which is a very good point, and is precedent for what we see in the Federation after all.

As I said in another thread, given the reaction to the "Post Atomic Horror," United Earth probably has laws prohibiting the formation of a military force in space (in fact, we already HAVE laws like that, but World War III would have certainly reaffirmed the reasons for them). The same laws wouldn't prohibit the formation of a scientific research agency, and thus Earth Starfleet was created, modeled as a spaceborne version of NOAA. When the need arose for inter-system law enforcement actions, United Earth turned to the only agency with any warp-capable spacecraft and allowed them to arm those ships with weapons. When the Death Star Mini drew a smiley face on Florida, Earth again turned to the only agency with warp capable starships (and the only man who seemed to have only idea what the hell was going on), provided them with still BETTER weapons and sent them to deliver the Xindi a strongly worded letter.

Starfleet grew into a paramilitary organization very VERY slowly, over a number of years and through a number of acts of pure convenience. It isn't so much that the Federation (or maybe just Earth) avoided making them a formal military organization, they simply never BOTHERED to, as Starfleet was able to do exactly what they needed it to without changing it from what it originally was in the first place.

If Japan had an oceanographic research agency that was as well armed as the JSDF, they wouldn't need a military force of any kind.
 
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Just take Kirk's comment to John Christopher literally "we're a combined service" (IIRC).

Starfleet is a multipurpose organization whose military functions come to the fore when needed but otherwise recede into the background when other duties arise. It's not really all that complicated a concept.

Works for me.

Except that what everyone seems to forget about Kirk's conversation with Captain Christopher is that Kirk's combined service comment was in response to Christopher asking if Kirk was part ogf the Navy, so Kirk seemed to be saying Starfleet was an organization that was more of combination of all the military branches.

They never really went into whether Starfleet was a military or not in that episode.
 
Just take Kirk's comment to John Christopher literally "we're a combined service" (IIRC).

Starfleet is a multipurpose organization whose military functions come to the fore when needed but otherwise recede into the background when other duties arise. It's not really all that complicated a concept.

Works for me.

Except that what everyone seems to forget about Kirk's conversation with Captain Christopher is that Kirk's combined service comment was in response to Christopher asking if Kirk was part ogf the Navy, so Kirk seemed to be saying Starfleet was an organization that was more of combination of all the military branches.

They never really went into whether Starfleet was a military or not in that episode.

Your interpretation is probably correct regarding the original episode's writer's intent. I just meant, rather than go one for hundreds of posts round and round in a circle, if we took Kirk's words literally, there is no real reason to argue. Starfleet is a multipurpose institution that includes military, diplomatic, exploratory and scientific duties. As it is a fictional institution, there is no need for it to be classified as more one of those things than the other a priori--the institution merely serves whatever function the story calls for.
 
Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.

As I understand, Japan's defense force is just that, a defense force with no offensive capabilities. While Starfleet might not always go on the offensive, they do have offensive capabilities.

Also, when someone in Japan's defense force finds themselves in legal trouble, the matter is dealt with in civilian court. Starfleet officers face court martial.
 
Starfleet is both 100% a space military and 100% a space exploratory agency. It depends on what the situation is and what the narrative demands.

It is both. And neither. Starfleet is its own beginning. Its own ending. A gateway to our own future, if we wish.
 
I'll offer once more TUC as a counter-example: as soon as the Klingon peace prospect is brought up, someone mentioned they might mothball Starfleet.
Which was a strawman, not a serious suggestion, considering Spock never said anything about the ships, only the neutral zone outposts.

It's a bit like when someone suggests "I think we should pull out of Afghanistan" and somebody replies "You mean we should let the terrorists win?"

From the script

SPOCK: Good morning. Two months ago a Federation starship monitored an explosion on the Klingon moon Praxis. We believe it was caused by over-mining and insufficient safety precautions. The moon's decimation means a deadly pollution of their ozone. They will have depleted their supply of oxygen in approximately fifty Earth years. Due to their enormous military budget, the Klingon economy does not have the resources to combat this catastrophe. Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.

CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?

SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.

MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...

CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.
The lines clearly indicate that they feared dismantling Starfleet, yet leaving the exploratory and scientific branches open, a military viewpoint and reference. This possible threat to Starfleet was the reason for the conspiracy in the first place, so hardly a straw-man argument if Cartwright and other officers believed the threat was real enough to act against their own government.

HOWEVER although this is more evidence to the military-side of the argument, this IS from TUC, which as you have pointed out, is under Meyers more "Starfleet is Military" outlook.

I still stand by my assertion though, on-screen evidence supports both options equally, so both viewpoints are equally as valid.

How can we, as fans, make a final assessment when even the characters (occasionally even the SAME character) have differing opinions ??
 
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