Scifi with aggressive sexuality
- Thread starter JirinPanthosa
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It's quite surprising how, in just a couple pages, the thread has pretty much lost any focus on media entirely.
Granted, certain elements in the original post have been refuted or even objectively disproven. The OP said that Lost Girl felt like it was written by 14-year-old boys. In reality, the show was created by a woman and both of its head writers were women. The OP also said that Bo's hypnotic touch seems to not work on homosexual men. This is demonstrably false (SEE "Food for Thought" & "Fae-de to Black").
Still, if this thread drifts much more, it should probably be shifted from SF/F to The Neutral Zone. (I assume the TrekBBS still has a Neutral Zone. I haven't been there in over a decade.)
The problem with diagnosing any "large social problem" is that society itself is a complex system filled with diverse individuals, many of whom don't fit the model in one way or another.
The tricky thing about doing that with a fictional character is that, by definition, they have no "agency." They are unfeeling things constructed by people so that we can project our aspirations, fears, lusts, etc. onto them. Fictional characters exist for the pleasure of real people. By doing it this way, hopefully we can contain it within a safe, fictional environment.
Granted, certain elements in the original post have been refuted or even objectively disproven. The OP said that Lost Girl felt like it was written by 14-year-old boys. In reality, the show was created by a woman and both of its head writers were women. The OP also said that Bo's hypnotic touch seems to not work on homosexual men. This is demonstrably false (SEE "Food for Thought" & "Fae-de to Black").
Still, if this thread drifts much more, it should probably be shifted from SF/F to The Neutral Zone. (I assume the TrekBBS still has a Neutral Zone. I haven't been there in over a decade.)
The problem with diagnosing any "large social problem" is that society itself is a complex system filled with diverse individuals, many of whom don't fit the model in one way or another.
The tricky thing about doing that with a fictional character is that, by definition, they have no "agency." They are unfeeling things constructed by people so that we can project our aspirations, fears, lusts, etc. onto them. Fictional characters exist for the pleasure of real people. By doing it this way, hopefully we can contain it within a safe, fictional environment.
It makes people uncomfortable in the same way that listening to Donald Trump talk about Muslims makes people uncomfortable, if that's what you were going for.
Well, that never happens on any TV shows that I watch, but I watch very few TV shows.
And you should know better than to use words like "mansplain." That's insulting-- or would be, if it wasn't silly. If something is a Right-Wing belief, then I will continue to point it out in hopes of impressing upon people what they are doing.
No, by which I'm countering your statement. Didn't you object to people misrepresenting what other people say? You have done absolutely nothing to detail that my views lack nuance, so there's nothing to address.
Ah, a nuanced view includes agreeing with your conservative viewpoint. Well, I can address that by saying that I disagree.
More like liberal privilege, since this is exactly what I listened to from everybody who opposed Women's Lib and the Sexual Revolution back in the day.
If you think the idea of rape culture is mainstream, I'd hate to see what you think of as extremist.
Modern Feminists? You mean as opposed to the 19th Century? The number of male Feminists has been growing since the Suffrage Era, at least.
That's an odd lie to tell, since you just quoted me saying the opposite.
Of course I do. It's kind of better if you don't do things that are counter-productive and self-defeating. It's always more helpful to be nice to people. Aren't Left Wingers supposed to believe in diplomacy instead of war? People like to make fun of the peace-and-love movement of the 60s, but that's what changed the world more than it's ever been changed before. The contemporary political climate is all about hatred and divisiveness, and now that progress is being eroded. Reality speaks for itself.Sounds like: "Why aren't feminists always sweet and agreeable? I don't like it when they're angry!"
You don't get to tone-police oppressed groups.
That's funny, because I was thinking the same thing about you. I'm not sure, though, which views you'd like me to reconsider? That women are just as intelligent and creative as men and should have all the same opportunities? That women should have all the same social, financial, and sexual freedom that men have? That women should not be considered mentally or emotionally different from men? That women should not be abused or victimized or oppressed? As for being the perfect non-sexist dude, since you remember my "past behavior," I don't think I need to repeat my resume, but I do definitely take pride in the contributions I've made to Feminism, both professionally and personally, over the decades.
Did you really just say that women denouncing the very real rape culture that affects so many women and causes so much suffering is exactly the same as Donald Trump's racist speeches?
Just because hearing about how a rape culture mostly created by men that causes so many female victims is kinda uncomfortable for men to hear about? Rape culture doesn't mean that every man is a rapist (duh!) but it's certainly a systematic male problem created by a culture around it. A culture that lacks a respect for female agency, sexually objectifies women, sees women as potential "conquests" (implying a win-lose situation), and of male entitlement. We're talking about a cultural problem, not demonizing all men as rapists.
I can't even begin to tell you how outrageous and upsetting that thought is but the male privilege is strong in that statement.
Wow, just wow. That might just be the most disgusting thing I have read all year on this site.
Denouncing sexual objectification is not right-wing.
What you are doing, on the other hand, is. I find your reactionary statements regrettable but you're showing no willingness to change your ways so all I can do is hope that your attitudes won't make matters worse for the women around you and those who are exposed to your views.
I have explained, in detail, that one can be sex-positive, and still denounce the sexual objectification and negative effects that has on an already systematically oppressed group.
That you choose to ignore that says a lot about you.
Pointing out sexual objectification and systematic oppression that leads to a widespread problem with violence against women, disenfranchisement, and the denial of agency, is conservative now?
I think you need to take a step back and realize how incredibly ridiculous your posts look.
No, privileged groups do not get to tone-police the concerns of systematically oppressed groups of people. You do not get to tell black people not to be so angry about racism either. You care about tone while to me it's a matter of survival.
I'm not sorry we're not always soft-spoken and agreeable because history has taught us that this just makes it easier for society to ignore us.
The fun part is, of course, that this doesn't apply to this conversation anyway. I have tried to calmly explain these concepts to you. Vehemently disagreeing with you is not the same as being divisive.
I find your opinions harmful and upsetting and you are not reacting well to criticism. Yet I am still perfectly calm in presenting my arguments.
Bingo!
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This whole post is sexist mansplaining. Objecting to rape culture isn't 'right wing' 'conservative' or any other dismissive moniker you want to put to it. If men are uncomfortable being confronted with how they treat women then they should look to themselves as to why. Your resume of Feminism? Appeals to some imagined self-glorification won't change that your entire post is nothing more than neanderthal sexism.
Talking about rape culture should make people with a conscience uncomfortable. Is there a pleasant way to talk about rampant sexual objectification, harassment, and assault that largely goes unreported and unpunished, and even when it does it frequently re-victimizes the attacked by exposing them to a dehumanizing, hostile evidence collection and judicial process that has a poor record of success and weak sentencing? It's not supposed to make you comfortable; few civil rights or social justice causes have made people feel comfortable at the time, because they're addressing historic and ongoing wrongs.
The fact that you are so concerned about being upset by words and tone is staggering when the people whose dialogue you're attempting to police are worried about not being raped in their home, school, workplace, or just walking around on the streets. The sense of entitlement and lack of self-awareness is astonishing.
So it's not a problem because you don't see it from your admittedly insular viewpoint? So why are you so vehemently opposing the arguments of people who clearly have been more involved and more exposed to these things than you? Most people would take a step back and realize that they're a bit out of their depth, but you plunge in head first. Why?
You literally just mansplained mansplaining in a post full of mansplaining. Bravo for your infinite metanness.
Yes, yes, we know, you're The Greatest Feminist Who Ever Lived™ as you so frequently remind us, along with the greatest civil rights advocate. I've never actually seen any concrete demonstration of that in the words you say (quite the opposite, in fact) beyond the frequent superlatives about yourself and a few scattered platitudes , but you sure do brand yourself well.
It's got 471,000 hits on Google and scores of scholarly and mainstream media articles, which while still up and coming, is hardly a fringe concept. And it's extremely commonplace in feminist discussion today among young women and men of this generation and the generation before, who are the most affected by it (though certainly not the only ones). Though it would help if older generations who have huge influence on voting representatives who pass laws that affect rape culture, and who occupy the bureaucracies of schools, businesses, and other institutions that have direct influence over how sexual assault is handled in their organizations would take the time to pay attention to what people are saying instead of just rejecting it out of hand because they don't like the tone and words.
Besides your rather rose-colored view of 60s civil rights movements, which were hardly all about peace and love, nor were those the only movements that were effective, this isn't non-peaceful. It's harsh words (though really not even that harsh) that you're opposing. No one is using violence here to make their point. It's specifically about opposition to violence and prevention of violence. And you're going to try and shut them down because you're mildly inconvenienced or offended by their tone? Seriously? How entitled can you possibly be?
Just because you never raise your voice or use harsh language doesn't mean that your not being condescending and demeaning and dismissive. It's faux civility designed to claim the moral high ground while shutting down ideas and conversations you don't like.
So why are you fighting so hard? If you think women are being abused and victimized and oppressed and think that's a bad thing that should be opposed, what's the problem?
There isn't some GamerGate or MRA forum where your opinions would be more welcomed..?
[citation needed]
That's because the Boomer hippies sold out and turned into hateful, selfish wankers. So if you want to blame somebody for the current political climate, look in the mirror, or at least to your peers.
How convenient to say you're being deliberately self-aware and subversive while delivering exactly what the lowest common denominator eats up like candy in the marketplace. How many of Fergie's male fans ponder this or are they only interested in seeing her bare ass poking out of a tub full of milk?
Considering the destruction of viable business models in the music industry, and how fragmented people's attention-spans are, artists are sort of in an arms-race of shock-tactics. It's commerce and self-promotion. Artistic merit has little to do with it. Videos like that trend on Facebook in a way more conventional music can't.
That's of course precisely and deliberately the line a lot of "subversiveness" walks, as I went on to explain in the post you're replying to.
Probably a fair number of both. However, I'm really not on board with the ill-disguised slut-shaming going on here. Fergie's not exposing Teh Childrenz to hardcore porn or something, her videos are fairly tame and playful. Whether or not you care for her music I'd suggest that there are vastly worse things in our contemporary media landscape for one to spend one's offendedness on.
Commerce and self-promotion in the music biz! Well lawsy me! I'd best to get my smellin' salts!
Only in 2016 is saying motherf*cker and having her bare ass poking out a tub could be considered tame and playful. What kind of content would actually raise your hackles?
Look, people can be as slutty as they like, but they should cop to it and not pretend they are making some bold artistic statement when it's simply about finding the quickest and easiest path to filthy lucre.
Wow, you really like saying "bare ass poking out of a tub," huh? What is it about asses that horrifies you so much, exactly? I find that kind of censoriousness substantially weirder than the borrowed Fifties pinup-girl imagery Fergie's video is quoting. (And oh noes, a bleeped cuss word! The horror! Clarence Carter was doing way ruder stuff than that Fergie song like forty years ago, perhaps you need to get out more.)
Well, the apparent horror of exposed flesh above the ankle certainly doesn't do it. In general it's pretty hard to offend me with music or music videos, on account of whatever's "wrong" with any particular example is likelier to be symptom than cause, although there are certainly vastly more direct examples of the promotion of misogyny and violence, or of ultra-nationalism and war, to be found in music than anything Fergie is doing.
Far as I can tell that's a strawman of your own devising. I certainly don't see Fergie "pretending" to be anything other than a pop musician or anyone else claiming that she's more than that.
Well, it's true that the term "rape culture" was formulated in the 1970s. But sociological phenomena represented by the term have been occurring at least for centuries in many countries around the world.
Plenty of men raped their wives before the 1970s as a way to show them who was the boss...
Wow. Okay.
Mansplaining is a thing. If calling you out on it offends you, don't do it. I used to do it, I try very hard not to now, it's demeaning to both genders (or more if you want).
Rape culture. It's a thing too. I remember a poster on here some years ago thoroughly vilified for going to a pro-rape site. Granted, a fair percentage of it (I had to see what we were vilifying, and never went again) seemed to be fantasy, wish-fulfilment or play-acting (from both genders), but it really can be the thin edge of the wedge, and could in some people lead to pursuit of the real thing. Now the right wing uses it as a club to beat feminism with, saying "it's not real!" when the opposite is obvious. And feminists HAVE to use it as a shield, because they experience it, and let's face it, as men of a certain age, we don't. A complete eye opener was a trip into reddit when there was a thread about female on male rape. It wasn't about sexy fun ("Hey, more than one girl!!"), it was about humiliation, being used, and in general treated like shit. There were some terrible events in that thread. And the worst part of all was how the men would be laughed at afterwards, "you were asking for it! Don't be a wimp!" and similar. No, after putting myself in those mens' shoes, it gave me an inkling into what women think and feel, because it would be worse again.
We have to be flexible, we have to change our minds, and most of all, we have to watch ourselves reall carefully, every fucking day.
“The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” - Charles Bukowski.
I'd rather be filled with doubts, then sail on stupidly into the sunset and over the edge.
"We all change, when you think about it, we're all different people; all through our lives, and that's okay, that's good, you've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be. I will not forget one line of this, not one day, I swear." - The Doctor.
The corollary being... if you're the same person all your life, and you never change... then you never grow. Simple.
(Sorry, not terribly deep, but I haven't been well for weeks, physically or mentally).
Mansplaining is a thing. If calling you out on it offends you, don't do it. I used to do it, I try very hard not to now, it's demeaning to both genders (or more if you want).
Rape culture. It's a thing too. I remember a poster on here some years ago thoroughly vilified for going to a pro-rape site. Granted, a fair percentage of it (I had to see what we were vilifying, and never went again) seemed to be fantasy, wish-fulfilment or play-acting (from both genders), but it really can be the thin edge of the wedge, and could in some people lead to pursuit of the real thing. Now the right wing uses it as a club to beat feminism with, saying "it's not real!" when the opposite is obvious. And feminists HAVE to use it as a shield, because they experience it, and let's face it, as men of a certain age, we don't. A complete eye opener was a trip into reddit when there was a thread about female on male rape. It wasn't about sexy fun ("Hey, more than one girl!!"), it was about humiliation, being used, and in general treated like shit. There were some terrible events in that thread. And the worst part of all was how the men would be laughed at afterwards, "you were asking for it! Don't be a wimp!" and similar. No, after putting myself in those mens' shoes, it gave me an inkling into what women think and feel, because it would be worse again.
We have to be flexible, we have to change our minds, and most of all, we have to watch ourselves reall carefully, every fucking day.
“The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” - Charles Bukowski.
I'd rather be filled with doubts, then sail on stupidly into the sunset and over the edge.
"We all change, when you think about it, we're all different people; all through our lives, and that's okay, that's good, you've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be. I will not forget one line of this, not one day, I swear." - The Doctor.
The corollary being... if you're the same person all your life, and you never change... then you never grow. Simple.
(Sorry, not terribly deep, but I haven't been well for weeks, physically or mentally).
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Seriously? I'm not sure if this was deliberately obtuse, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Trump blames all Muslims for the acts of a few while most are pretty decent people who don't want any trouble. Rape culture states that society accepts and glorifies rape, when in the real world the vast majority of people are pretty decent and despise the concept of rape.
Yet again, the concept of a separate set of rules for anything remotely resembling sexuality is Right Wing.
Thank you, they're fine. By the same token, I hope that the extremist, alienating politics of the 21st century don't damage Feminism and give ammunition to the Right Wing. But I'm afraid it's too late.
And, yet again, it's not about anger. It's about being constructive versus being self-defeating. Do you really want to lose?
Indeed it should. Just as much as talking about rape.
The question you should be asking is, Is there a constructive way that will actually make a difference to the people you purport to care about?
You are quite correct. Decades of work with women and minorities mean nothing next to naive grandstanding on social media. Gotta love the 21st century.
Reading for comprehension. It works. I said it was a fringe element forty years ago, when people were focused on positive change. It fits right in with today's extremist Zeitgeist. Maybe you should click on some of those links. The Wiki page includes comments from RAINN and some female activists who aren't too fond of the meme.
Are you even present for this conversation?
Fighting what so hard? It's simple: Blaming society's ills on TV, movies, comic books, and Rock'n'Roll is way too Dr. Wertham. And the human race is not some loathsome species that glorifies rape. The Left Wing used to believe these things. Maybe if I repeat them enough times it will trigger some kind of racial memory or something.
History.
Even if that were true, and there are certainly people like that, it doesn't change the fact that we know what works. Hatred breeds hatred. Divisiveness divides people. Do you want to make change, or do you just like to show off?
The problem of rape has certainly existed since the dawn of consciousness, but there have been very few, if any, cultures that have actually considered rape as normal and acceptable. Certainly not in modern history. The concept goes way beyond cynicism. It's repulsive.
And with that, I'll be taking my leave. Enjoy.
I've been wondering why you haven't stopped by the old hangout for a while. I'm sorry you're not feeling well. You should stop by and give everyone an update. We've also got a bunch of cool new stuff to read that might cheer you up.
RJ, your condescending and backwards attitude towards and about women, while not solely responsible, was a huge contributing factor in several women deciding to reduce or stop their posting in Miscellaneous altogether, and in some cases to leave the board entirely, back in 2009 when I first became a mod and there was a major issue with the treatment of female posters in Miscellaneous. To this day some women cite you specifically as the reason they left. I know you probably won't trust my word on that but it's true. They were looking for mods on the Miscellaneous staff to listen to them and make strides toward resolving some of their quite reasonable issues, but instead all you could seemingly contribute to the discussion were endless lectures about why they were wrong and how you knew better because you worked for twenty years in Women's Health and that made you know women better than they knew themselves.
It was one of the most arrogant and counterproductive things I had ever seen on this board. Every time we made some sort of breakthrough in the discussion you would come along and sabotage it with a rose-colored anecdote about how you did things better in the 60s and you kids today don't do liberalism and feminism right and blah blah blah... basically I'm more enlightened than you. It was all self-aggrandizement masquerading as unsolicited and unwanted advice. You never listened to a word any of those women had to say because it didn't conform to some delusional 60s-era ideal you'd constructed about HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE.
I actually considered you a friend because you had helped show me the ropes as a new mod at the time, so I was completely taken aback by not only the passive-aggressive tone policing and faux civility you exhibited but also the way that no matter how many women (and men) spoke up to tell you that the way you were handling things was wrong, it made not a dent in your self-impressed Armor of Enlightenment and Righteousness. Most people who have literally dozens of people in a discussion tell them their behavior was rude, condescending, and unhelpful would at least take the time to reconsider their position, but you didn't budge an inch, and you still haven't to this day, which is how we wind up here seven years later with you lecturing women and not listening to them (or men who disagree with you too) once again.
I really hope you will take the time to reconsider the way you handle things in general and regarding women on the board especially from now on, because right now, even though you may not see it, you are a very negative presence on the board for many of them.
It was one of the most arrogant and counterproductive things I had ever seen on this board. Every time we made some sort of breakthrough in the discussion you would come along and sabotage it with a rose-colored anecdote about how you did things better in the 60s and you kids today don't do liberalism and feminism right and blah blah blah... basically I'm more enlightened than you. It was all self-aggrandizement masquerading as unsolicited and unwanted advice. You never listened to a word any of those women had to say because it didn't conform to some delusional 60s-era ideal you'd constructed about HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE.
I actually considered you a friend because you had helped show me the ropes as a new mod at the time, so I was completely taken aback by not only the passive-aggressive tone policing and faux civility you exhibited but also the way that no matter how many women (and men) spoke up to tell you that the way you were handling things was wrong, it made not a dent in your self-impressed Armor of Enlightenment and Righteousness. Most people who have literally dozens of people in a discussion tell them their behavior was rude, condescending, and unhelpful would at least take the time to reconsider their position, but you didn't budge an inch, and you still haven't to this day, which is how we wind up here seven years later with you lecturing women and not listening to them (or men who disagree with you too) once again.
I really hope you will take the time to reconsider the way you handle things in general and regarding women on the board especially from now on, because right now, even though you may not see it, you are a very negative presence on the board for many of them.
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The concept of rape culture does not mean a gang of men going around raping or glorifying rape, you're quite right that noone finds that acceptable. I mean the two first paragraphs on wikipedia explains it perfectly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
Thieving has also not been normal and acceptable in societies since forever.
There's still a pretty fucking big chance you'll get something stolen from you during your lifetime.
Likewise, there's too big of a chance in today's society for a woman to be sexually assaulted.
Why is this so hard for you to acknowledge?
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