Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Australis]

When I hear the words 'rape culture', to me that is about certain (hopefully very few) males who view it as their... not right, but as something they can do, as in husbands with wives, and that women should submit. And that it shouldn't be reported, that it doesn't mean anything.

So we are coming at this from the opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[stardream]

It includes the attitude that some have. Oh...rape. Well, it's bad but it's not as bad as that thing over there.....fill in the blank.
It's also the mindset that a man's career, reputation, whatever is more important than a woman's trauma.

 

[Gov Kodos]

When I hear the words 'rape culture', to me that is about certain (hopefully very few) males who view it as their... not right, but as something they can do, as in husbands with wives, and that women should submit. And that it shouldn't be reported, that it doesn't mean anything.

So we are coming at this from the opposite ends of the spectrum.

They are one consequence but they are not the culture, I'd say. That is the society at large where a woman speaking up for herself is a bitch. Where a guy turned down is friend-zoned implying denial of an entitlement to sex. Where women's behavior is casually checked by anyone any time "smile more/smile less" "wear something nicer/wear something less slutty" what have you they can never win but more important there should be no peanut gallery anyway. Rapists and the folks who make excuses for them are bad enough and aren't going away any more than any other violent crime will, but there is much which helps make excuses for them which are directed at women painting them as culpable for what happens to any woman attacked by having to hear safety lectures on behavior, dress, and above all directing how they are allowed to experience their sexuality.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The problem of rape has certainly existed since the dawn of consciousness, but there have been very few, if any, cultures that have actually considered rape as normal and acceptable. Certainly not in modern history. The concept goes way beyond cynicism. It's repulsive.

As several others have just noted, this is not what rape culture means at all.

One facet of rape culture is that the culture teaches that certain behavior is not a violation of a woman's rights, when in fact it is in a way that supports rape. One way this is done is to define certain instances of rape as something other than rape. The example of it being accepted for a husband to demand sex from his wife even when she doesn't want it was just given by @Australis.

Another facet just mentioned by @Gov Kodos is the social conditioning of women from young ages and from many quarters that their function in life is to be sex objects. This has the effect, for example, to make it more likely for victims to question whether they are really victims or just performing their social function.

And when there is rape, i.e. when according to the laws of the culture there would be a crime of rape, a further facet of it is that the culture encourages either blaming the victim or making it very difficult for the victim to see justice done.

And this brief outline is nowhere near complete.

The Wikipedia article on rape culture was linked to by @Myko.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

While, of course, Wikipedia articles shouldn't be uncritically taken as gospel, perhaps the one on rape culture would be a good place to start to better understand what in fact "rape culture" means; what you (@RJDiogenes) said it was isn't it at all. (Naturally, if you find things that are wrong in the article, you could correct them. That would help everybody else.)

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

Rape culture states that society accepts and glorifies rape, when in the real world the vast majority of people are pretty decent and despise the concept of rape.

As others have said, you're understanding of rape culture is extremely flawed, and I'm not sure if it's you who is not being purposely obtuse. I work in education, and it is amazing to see that boys are taught, not by me, that it's a girls fault if she is wearing something that is too sexual. Boys aren't taught the proper way to act, they are taught that is a girls job to change, literally, so that boys are not distracted. We create a society where we tell boys at a young age that girls must conform to them. And if they don't, well they were just asking for it.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The question you should be asking is, Is there a constructive way that will actually make a difference to the people you purport to care about?

Good question. One that this post completely ignores. Rape culture doesn't mean that there's a group that says "rape is good," rather it's the combined set of beliefs, ideals, and systems in place that allow rape and sexual assault to happen all too frequently, for its perpetrators to all-too-often not even be reported, and, when they are, face little to no consequences for their actions.

This is real and is at the heart of things like this which do not occur without a cultural component to them - one that seeks to minimalize and marginalize the problem ... in large part by minimalizing and marginalizing the voices of those who speak out against it. Which is precisely what posts like the one I quoted do. Not only do they seek to minimalize and marginalize the problem, they seek to actively impose a patronizing tone on the entire discussion, thereby minimalizing and marginalizing the voices speaking out against it. They are, therefore, perfect examples of the insidiousness of rape culture.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

All you have to think of is the recent rape case where not only did the guy get less than minimum sentence, his father wrote a letter defending him saying it ruined his life for 20 minutes of action and then his mother also defended him. It wasn't really rape because... there was drink involved, there was a party, there was promiscuity on campus, etc. Forgiving rape, calling it "not really rape". People saying perhaps those girls should have been more open to having sex with the kid who went on a shooting spree, then he wouldn't have had to. That is the sharp end of Rape Culture.

 

[Shanndee]

I can't add anything to what has already been said so eloquently by others, all I can do is thank all of you for saying the things that I have been feeling in a much more calm and coherent way than I would have been able to. I raise my glass to you!

 

[Amaris]

Yeah, I came here to add my two bits and saw that people have been laying down C-notes. I guess all I can say is that I hope for the day soon where the first response to a woman being sexually assaulted isn't whether or not she did something to cause it.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Trump blames all Muslims for the acts of a few while most are pretty decent people who don't want any trouble. Rape culture states that society accepts and glorifies rape

You clearly do not understand the concept of rape culture. Unlike Trump who demonizes all Muslims, nobody is suggesting that all men are potential rapists. We are instead denouncing a systemic problem in society that has created a worrying culture.
Our society has developed a culture in which women are objectified and denied agency.
When women are just seen as sex objects and only serve to please male gaze and desire, it creates an atmosphere of male entitlement and denial of female agency. When human beings aren't seen as subjects but objects, others tend to think they can use them.
Rape is just one particularly nasty aspect of a culture that systemically puts women at a disadvantage in that regard.

That rape culture is obviously reinforced by the lenient attitude of courts and legislation towards rapists and the horrible treatment rape victims experience by courts but also often public and media.

The sad thing is that you should know all this already but you refuse to accept that being sex-positive and supporting female (and male) desire does not mean we also have to support the systemic sexual objectification of women. We recognize that this culture is reinforcing a very old problem: That of men thinking of women as objects they can use.

Yet again, the concept of a separate set of rules for anything remotely resembling sexuality is Right Wing.

You are completely unable to accept any nuance yet again. Of course there should be different sets of rules for different concepts. Sex-positiive attitudes that involve agency on both sides have nothing to do with the denial of agency and sexual objectification.

And again: We are not talking about a few individual cases of objectification (for which there might be reasons that do involve female agency) but of a widespread phenomenon that's apparent in almost all media and almost all aspects of society and culture.

Thank you, they're fine. By the same token, I hope that the extremist, alienating politics of the 21st century don't damage Feminism and give ammunition to the Right Wing. But I'm afraid it's too late.

You sound exactly like the reactionaries back in the 1950s. You're seeing the continued struggle of men and women to end misogyny and systemic sexism as "extremism". Your posts support a conservative system of beliefs that treats women like objects, tries to take control of our bodies and threatens our very life, emotional and physical well-being.
You sound like the men who are just tired of the fact that their privilege and sexist culture is still being criticized.
You think that changing the laws has been enough when in fact the actual struggle is that of changing society and culture.

And, yet again, it's not about anger. It's about being constructive versus being self-defeating. Do you really want to lose?

Everybody's replies to you have been full of good reasoning and constructive arguments. The fact that you have such a visceral stubborn reaction to these arguments doesn't say anything about anger on our part.

But even if it did, I still insist: As part of a privileged group you do not get to tone-police people speaking for an oppressed group.

Yes, women are angry at sexism at times. Black people are angry at racism at times. How about you direct your energy towards changing the incredible injustice that is victimizing these groups instead of asking women: "But why are you so angry?"

We are angry because reactionary opinions like yours are reinforcing a culture that treats us as objects, that denies us agency, that puts us at a disadvantage in economic matters, that threatens our emotional and physical health. You are refusing to listen to the people to whom this is a matter of survival.
You are refusing to recognize that supporting sex-positive attitudes does not mean we should support the sexual objectification of women. You are refusing to acknowledge that this culture of objectification makes many men think of women as objects they can use.
A culture that shows women as exclusively serving male gaze and desire, that sees dating as a zero-sum game in which the man is winning a conquest, a culture that asks women what they were wearing after they've been raped.

The question you should be asking is, Is there a constructive way that will actually make a difference to the people you purport to care about?

You mean that is the question you should be asking yourself, right?
Your posts indicate you are not doing that.

Fighting what so hard? It's simple: Blaming society's ills on TV, movies, comic books, and Rock'n'Roll is way too Dr. Wertham.

Nice strawman there. Did you build it yourself?
Of course media aren't the only reason we have developed this culture. Media are in fact also a symptom of this culture. But media, just like the experiences we make and the attitudes we encounter, help us construct our reality. The omnipresent culture of female objectification and denial of agency is informing this and reinforcing this.
We are not "blaming media". We are blaming all elements of society that support and create this culture.

And the human race is not some loathsome species that glorifies rape. The Left Wing used to believe these things.

Rape is not glorified and the left wing isn't claiming that. But ring-wingers like you love to portray things in simplistic ways like that. We live in a world where rapists routinely get away with rape or face very lenient sentences. We live in a world where women are asked what they could've done to avoid being raped ("What were you wearing?") instead of focusing on the rapist.

We live in a world in which women are portrayed as sex objects without agency and this is reinforcing rape culture. That doesn't mean all of society wants women to get raped. That's an asinine simplification.

@Locutus of Bored is right. In your time as a mod but also as a poster your posts and actions have created a toxic atmosphere for women on this board. The dismissive and patronizing attitude that's present in all your post on the subject has been harmful and upsetting. And while many women choose not to even engage with you anymore, I'm glad that so many people won't let your arrogant drivel stand uncontested.

By now I have next to no hope that you will ever take what we write to heart and consider it but I think it is important to deal with your posts in public every time you make them.
This is not about you personally. This is all about the things you write. And we should not, ever, create a culture in which such opinions can stand unchallenged. People with misogynist attitudes need to learn that these opinions are not accepted and are always challenged with good reasoning and constructive arguments.

And the vast majority of good people who read this, will draw their own conclusions and learn from this. We already have had several men speak up, stating how reading these discussions have helped them look past their privilege and really consider the very real issues women are facing in our society.
Every time we discuss these things and present our arguments, a growing number of people sees your posts for what they are and I'm beyond happy to see that they end up embracing equality and social justice even more strongly than they did before.

Feminism is not a "men vs. women"-thing. We will never achieve anything unless we all have an understanding of the issues at hand and decide to stand up together for change in society and culture.

 

[Shanndee]

Wow, @{ Emilia }. That is logical, factual, beautifully written and well reasoned response. I'm sorry to admiit that I had limited my activity in this thread to "liking" posts and short replies to people who understood. I had given up on a real discussion due to my previous experiences with a certain poster. I was in no frame of mind to be told that I hadn't actually experienced the things that I thought I had, I was wrong about feminism and misogyny, and here is a list of all the reasons he knew more about being a woman than I did.

I had no desire to hit my head repeatedly against a brick wall.

Thank you for everything that you have said. It is really important, and the more it is addressed, the less the truth can be ignored.

 

[Sindatur]

@RJDiogenes , from reading your posts, it looks like you are unaware that Feminism has moved on since the critical points that we made and changed laws as soon as feasible to make things more equal for women. Those major things, of course would be the Vote for Women (Yes, that occurred long before what your posts reflect your view of Feminism to be), ability to get a Divorce, fair pay, more belief and harsher penalties for rape, legalizing Abortion, etc. And sexism, also has moved on from where it started, since the really big things have been put into Law.

As @{ Emilia } keeps mentioning, with Rape Culture, Rape Culture is the environment that let's men believe they can get away with Rape. I don't know if you've ever actually sat down and talked to a woman and listened to her and heard her when she's talked about her day out in Public or on the Internet, but, it's pretty horrific to believe that after so many years they still have to deal with the pressure of such garbage. Things like having to dress a specific way before running down to the corner store, if her clothes are too baggy and comfortable or her hair isn't just right, she's called a slob, and if she's dressed too sexy she's called a whore. Then there's the unwelcome objectification, and the leers and the sleazy pick up lines, cat calls and so on. And sometimes, she'll even be called a slob by the first man she encounters, while the next one is coming on to her like a sledge hammer. And this can happen on a daily basis and in the space of mere minutes.

And how do you think a woman feels when she gets on the Internet, and sees a Babe of the Week Thread, and some of the unsavory comments they contain. To say nothing of men on the Internet who think nothing of calling women foul names, or acting as if their point of view isn't important, or a woman having to put up with a man mansplaining to her, I've had people "mainsplain" stuff to me, with a really arrogant tone in their voice and I can't tell you how irritating and frustrating that is, especially when some of that stuff is stuff that I am far more experienced and knowledgeable than they will ever be. I can't imagine where women get the strength to continue going outdoors or using the Internet.

These are just tidbits of what @{ Emilia } means when she uses the term Rape Culture, not just the actual act of Rape, but, the hostile environment that Objectification of women promotes. And I'm sure there's a whole lot of women out there, who are neither drop dead gorgeous, nor aesthetically unpleasing, but, just average everyday women that go through each of these things at least once, every single week. And, I really, really, can't understand why any man would have the audacity to try and tell a woman that we men (Or a specific man) know more about Women or Feminism or Sexism than an actual woman knows.

I mean seriously? If you kill someone, do you get to tell their family how bad it is, or how much they can miss their departed family member, or how much they are allowed to cry? Why in the world would a man, any man, think he has the right to tell a woman, any woman what Objectification and denying Agency to a woman feels like or to correct her on what is Sexism or Misogyny.

 

[thestrangequark]

It's really hard to post in here, because I'm one of the women who just gave up and decided to avoid you, @RJDiogenes. But @{ Emilia } is right, nothing is going to change if people don't speak up, and while I do speak up -- frequently -- about feminism in other realms of my life, I gave up here. That was wrong. This may be just a silly message board, but it's a space I enjoy being in, and where I deserved to be comfortable. It is as important as any other. Last time I gave up because the conversation you and I had about this subject genuinely upset me (something that rarely happens). You did exactly what you are doing here; you told me my experiences as a woman were wrong, that you knew better. And do you know what? That sort of behavior is one of the aspects of the rape culture of which we are speaking.

I have no doubt in my mind that you see women as equals. I have no doubt in my mind that you care about feminism. You got all the big ideas about women's lib and sexual lib in general from the '60s and '70s down pat, and that's fantastic. I know you experienced a time when sexism was much more overt and things worse in many ways than they are now. But just because many things have got better doesn't mean everything is fixed. You seem unable to recognize the more subtle manifestations of sexism in society today, the kind that define rape culture, the kind that are, ironically, the root of the more blatant oppression of women that you so capably recognize and fight against.

It can be difficult to see that sexualization and objectification of women, or anyone of any gender, for that matter, can be part of sex-positivity so long as the person being sexualized and objectified is in a position of control (they have to want it and consent to it) and there is true equality in the relationship between the objectifier and the objectified. The problem is, when we haven't yet reached a point where there is true equality between men and women in society, and when sexual violence against women is still such a disproportionately huge issue, there is no way to engage in objectification or sexualization in the media without properly complicated context.
Can a female character be presented as sexual and be feminist and sex-positive? Yes! What's more, she could even be presented as sexually submissive and be feminist and sex positive! But the relationship must be contextualized, otherwise it will be defaulted to the societal standard, and in today's society, we still put the burden of rape on the victim, not the rapist. There is still an extreme underrepresentation of women in positions of power. There is still a continuing legislated assault on women's rights. There is still an earnings gap. The Friend Zone and Nice Guy mentalities are rampant. Sexual harassment for me, personally, is just part of daily life. When female characters are sexualized and objectified without context, we get media that contributes to the normalization of hyper-sexualization, objectification, and often sexual violence against women. In short: more representation of sexuality isn't in itself sex-positivity. It can be, it should be. As yet, in the majority of media, it is not.

This is why we have a problem with objectification of women in the media. The default contextualization is part of a negative and misogynistic experience for women. If the context within the specific movie or film is different, then: YAY! If we can change society and rid ourselves of rape culture, then more complex context in the media will no longer be necessary. YAY again!

But I must reiterate, because historically, this is where you double down: this is my experience as a woman. Dismissing women's experience of rape culture is expressly participating in it. When you do so you demonstrate that you are so incapable of recognizing the more subtle manifestations of sexism and misogyny that, despite wholeheartedly believing yourself to be a true feminist, you end up engaging them yourself, with fervor.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

My wife who CURRENTLY works in Women's Health, she's an OB/GYN. She's the Vice-Chair of the Department and the Residency Program Director. Along with that, she's also the State Legislative Chair in New York for ACOG, a Board Examiner and she has a few other jobs. We talk about this often and someone like @RJDiogenes is someone my wife refers to as "The Old Guard." They tend to be older men, but men in general who are OB/GYN's or work in Women's Health that are Misogynistic, often claim to know's what best for women and generally dismiss womens input and are condescending towards women, especially women in Women's Health. My wife deals with this on a daily basis and with all she does, it takes a serious toll. That's just her experience, than you add upon it all her patients experiences. She's a counselor to so many women who have to deal with this, all of it on-going in all aspects of life.

 

[Zaku]

Well, it's true that the term "rape culture" was formulated in the 1970s. But sociological phenomena represented by the term have been occurring at least for centuries in many countries around the world.

Everybody knows that before they came with the word "rape", no one was raped. There were just men who claimed their natural rights.

Another thing ruined by PC and SJWs.

 

[Chilli]

Wow, this thread is quite the straw man-littered mess. I have very little to add beyond what @{ Emilia } and @Locutus of Bored, and others have already said - I'm mostly sitting here scratching my head and wondering how hard the concept of "agency" can possibly be to understand.

Rape culture started out as a fringe element back in the 70s. It was kept at arm's length by Women's Libbers and liberals because, aside from being demeaning to both men and women, it gave ammunition to the Right Wingnuts. It seemed to disappear for a few decades until it was revived and mainstreamed by the Millennials. The unfortunate thing here is that our society has come to the point where something that ugly can fit right in.

Are you really saying that awareness of a problem is the actual problem here?

OK.

Rape culture states that society accepts and glorifies rape, when in the real world the vast majority of people are pretty decent and despise the concept of rape.

Straw man of the week. The German language, as one would expect it to, has a good word for what's at the core of rape culture: Verharmlosung. Harmless-ing something, basically. The issue is not that guys are all "Dude, you know what's awesome? Pokémon! And raping! Let's go catch some Pokémon, and do some raping while we're at it". The issue is that society oftentimes just doesn't treat it as a big deal, for reasons other posters have detailed much better than I could.

But to give an international perspective, Germany - which I would not consider a disproportionately societally backwards country (Bavaria doesn't count), so we're in mainstream Western civilization here - just recently passed absolutely unprecedented "No means no" legislation. Most of what's now become law (I'm going to gloss over some problematic aspects) is absolutely obvious and should have been the law all along. In fact, it's the result of an initiative that's been going for years, but that only recently was assigned the urgency it deserved ... in the aftermath of the mass sexual assaults by migrants last New Year's Eve.

Only when a racial/national/whatevs component was added to the mix women's concerns suddenly mattered, and many of the same people that'd been utterly dismissive about reports of mass molestation at Oktoberfest to give an example suddenly "realized" that public spaces can be dangerous for women.

Only when it became a question of "them" having their eyes on "our" women. Only when it became a question of property.

And as if to make my point for me, the right-wing populist party AfD then runs this dumbass ad:

"Cologne - Stuttgart - Hamburg ... More safety for our wives and daughters"

This is hardly a unique thought these geniuses had when it's still perfectly OK to state that "she's someone's daughter" as an argument why you should not take advantage of a young woman. Great - only when you define a woman in her relation towards someone else - usually male - can you really assign her any real value.

Given the pervasiveness of such attitudes, is it so hard to understand how and why agency, or the lack thereof, is an issue?

Maybe you could argue men are as much victims of patriarchy as women?

Without a doubt, excessively normative gender roles can have a detrimental effect on men as well.

But. Come on.

And I get really tired when "misandry" is blamed for structural disadvantages men might have. Sexist tropes that effect men negatively, like the societal expectation for men to adhere to certain prototypically male behavior patterns that are psychologically and physically (self-)destructive, are to a large extent enforced through the same patriarchal structures that feminism is opposed to. Wiminz hating on men aren't even a factor.

P.S. Emi is awesome, and everything she says is the undiluted truth. <3 <3 <3

 

[{ Emilia }]

Man, that ad is just absolutely insane, @Chilli. It's not "More security for women". It's just more security for women who are defined by their relationship to their husbands or dads.

I hate this whole "human rights by proxy" thing. Apparently we only have a value if we're related to some man.

You're absolutely right: attitudes like that support rape culture even when they're superficially fighting rape. Because by reducing women to their relation to a man, they have again turned us into objects that do not have agency, value and human rights of our own.
What men learn from this isn't that it's wrong to rape a woman because we have rights. No, they learn that it's wrong to rape a woman because some other guy already "owns" her.
Young guys who are exposed to this idea will grow up thinking it's perfectly okay for a man to control a woman and her body. Because only through him... we have value.

That actually reminds me of a guest post I wrote for @Robert Maxwell's blog. Click me.

Quoting myself:

The woman’s human dignity is not at the center of this; she is not the subject of this consideration. She is the object of a negotiation between men. The respect she deserves is not based on her being a human being but instead based on her connection to a man who cares for her.

 

[thestrangequark]

Thank you so much, @Chilli for pointing out the "She's someone's..." nonsense and how it illustrates the issue of agency. I couldn't believe the obtuseness of that remark about not understanding what agency meant. The "She's someone's..." argument is one of the most common arguments against sexual assault there is, and the fact that most people don't even see a problem with it is truly distressing. I think this meme sums it up most aptly and succinctly:

 

[Chilli]

What men learn from this isn't that it's wrong to rape a woman because we have rights. No, they learn that it's wrong to rape a woman because some other guy already "owns" her.

As exemplified by the tricky subject of spousal rape - i.e. by the fact that it is a tricky subject, that many people actually believe that you cannot rape your spouse.

Hey, it'd be like stealing your own property.

In fact, exactly like that.

 

[stardream]

I remember an example given to me of a woman sitting alone at a bar. A man starts coming onto her. She politely tells him to go away, she has a boyfriend. Man doesn't believe her, persists despite her protestations that his attention is unwanted and yes, she does have a boyfriend. Then her boyfriend shows up. Man apologizes to boyfriend, says nothing to the woman who is the one more deserving of the apology.