But that's OK, because obviously the woman isn't sex positive and has inhibitions due to our conservative and religiously tainted culture... or something.
Scifi with aggressive sexuality
- Thread starter JirinPanthosa
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"She's someone". Perfect, just perfect.
Yes, she is someone with human rights, hopes and dreams that are all her own. None of these things have anything to do with anyones else, and cannot (well, should not) be negated by a patriarchal system that tells her:
"well, what did you expect dressing like that?"
"well, you're going to have children in a few years, so do you really think that I should give you this job?"
"You have a professional job...who takes care of your children? They need you, why aren't you home looking after them?"
"Smile!"
"you'd be so much happier if you put on some make up, wore some nicer clothes...and lost a little weight"
No. Just no. A woman is someone with rights, who is capable of going after whatever she wants to make her life a happy one according to her own rules. We are not sorry for standing up for ourselves and telling others that they can't hold us down anymore, not without a fight.
Yes, she is someone with human rights, hopes and dreams that are all her own. None of these things have anything to do with anyones else, and cannot (well, should not) be negated by a patriarchal system that tells her:
"well, what did you expect dressing like that?"
"well, you're going to have children in a few years, so do you really think that I should give you this job?"
"You have a professional job...who takes care of your children? They need you, why aren't you home looking after them?"
"Smile!"
"you'd be so much happier if you put on some make up, wore some nicer clothes...and lost a little weight"
No. Just no. A woman is someone with rights, who is capable of going after whatever she wants to make her life a happy one according to her own rules. We are not sorry for standing up for ourselves and telling others that they can't hold us down anymore, not without a fight.
This. This is what infuriates me about people who minimize catcalling, or worse, tell me I should take it as a compliment. It is never a compliment. It is always an aggression. I minor aggression usually, yes. But an aggression nonetheless, because it completely disregards me as a person with agency. It is an invasion of my space for the sole purpose of asserting power over me.
It's easy to see when it's lewd. It may be more difficult, but is still not so difficult to see when it comes in the form of the "Smile" command. It may be harder for some to see when it comes in the form of, "Morning, beautiful," "Ohh, gorgeous!", "God bless you!", etc. But here is where what you said plays in, and I have a personal anecdote that perfectly illustrates it:
I was catcalled right after getting off a cell phone call during which I learned a loved one had been raped. Told what a sexy ass I had.
The men who do this don't see women as people with experiences who might not want to be bothered. They see them as objects over which they can assert control. And that is a daily experience. That is rape culture, @RJDiogenes. It existed before it was named -- it was not some concoction of radicals. It is a woman's reality. And it is why we can't have nice things -- like uncomplicated sex-positivity in the media.
About understanding agency, @Chilli: somebody on this very forum told me I can't complain about being sexually objectified by guys because I'm a model.
Totally not getting agency, clearly.
Similarly men struggle to understand that women don't necessarily wear sexy clothing for men but because we like a certain style and it makes us feel good/confident/happy. Maybe we even do it because of the effects it has on somebody but that's still agency.
And it doesn't mean it's okay for a totally random stranger to sexually objectify us and demand attention simply because we're wearing a nice dress. Entitled much, huh?
@thestrangequark Random guys telling me to "Smile!" make me grind my teeth instead.
Totally not getting agency, clearly.
Similarly men struggle to understand that women don't necessarily wear sexy clothing for men but because we like a certain style and it makes us feel good/confident/happy. Maybe we even do it because of the effects it has on somebody but that's still agency.
And it doesn't mean it's okay for a totally random stranger to sexually objectify us and demand attention simply because we're wearing a nice dress. Entitled much, huh?
@thestrangequark Random guys telling me to "Smile!" make me grind my teeth instead.
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One of my favorite things I learned about lately: the 1970 Wall Street "Ogle-In".
Some also have a hard time with the idea that women who work in a professional environment (office worker etc) might wear makeup to work because it's part of the uniform, similar to a man wearing a suit and tie, not because she wants to look pretty and catch some guy's eye. I explained this to one guy and he flat out told me I was lying.
The thing is...it's not hyperbolic.
The thing about "the friend zone" is that we live in a society that, while awash in sexual images, is also cluttered with sexual shaming. We've perpetuated this idea that sexual intimacy is only appropriate when it's done with someone for whom you also feel emotional intimacy. So, while no one is ever entitled to anything, it is understandably heartbreaking in a relationship when one party feels BOTH emotional intimacy & sexual attraction and the other does not.
Meanwhile, the "nice guy" mentality is, I think, a result of how certain women sexually respond to men in our society. Many of these "nice guys" don't conform to the "alpha male" stereotype, which many women seem to respond to. Many of these "alpha male" types then turn out to be physically abusive or unfaithful or otherwise mistreat their women, something which many of these women then tacitly accept by staying in the relationship. So, while many of these "nice guys" might not actually be that nice, the "alpha males" have set the bar so low in so many cases that just not-hitting-her qualifies as "niceER." It's not that "Women only date assholes." It's just that pretty much every asshole out there has a girlfriend.
It's true that women have their own experiences that affect their outlook. But so do men. So, let's try to look at it from another perspective. Suppose people treat other people the way that they want to be treated. So, suppose that when a man "catcalls" a woman, what he thinks he's doing is providing her with unsolicited validation of her sexual attractiveness. Now, it may be unwanted, ill-timed, ineffective, & unwise, but suppose that's the intent. You may be dealing with a man that does not receive a lot of sexual validation within his own life. Perhaps he's just hoping that you'll reciprocate?
The problem with the feminist narrative is that it tries to reduce every male/female interaction into an issue of "control." They insist that men want to control women at every juncture. Based on my experiences as a man and from other men I've known, I just don't see that and I don't know where feminists get that from. Not every issue relating to sex is about control. Usually, sex is just about sex!
Now who's demanding control? You're suggesting that, when you go into public spaces, people can only behave in the way that YOU want them to; that people can only react to you in the ways that YOU are willing to allow regardless of how they feel.
Unfortunately, the world is too complex for anyone to actually control more than a small part of it. I've been accosted by strangers on the street. I've had strange men proposition me; not a joke, not flirting, not asking me for a date, just flat out asking me for sex. Once, a man sat next to me on a bus bench, whipped his dick out, started masturbating, and asked me, "So how many bitches have you fucked?" I've seen full-on vaginal intercourse on the light rail train. (That's why I never sit in the back row anymore, even if it's the only seat available.) I haven't been able to control any of these situations. I've discovered that 99% of life in public spaces is just minding my own business and trying to put off everyone else with a casual don't-fuck-with-me attitude. The other 1% is completely out of my control.
Here's the rhetorical problem with the concept of "privilege": If the stated social problem is "People are treated unequally by society because they belong to Different Group X," then I don't see how constantly pointing out our differences will lead to greater equality in the future.
So long as we're talking about sexism, and trying to get this thread back on the subject of sexuality in media, I'd like to mention the most sexist movie I've ever seen; one that I've never seen called out for its depraved attitudes, but is rather celebrated on AFI's top 100 movies list. I'm speaking of the original 1970 movie version of M*A*S*H directed by Robert Altman, that supposed bastion of liberal values. I don't think I've ever seen more intolerant protagonists than the movie versions of Hawkeye & Trapper John. They spend a great deal of the movie harassing Major Houlihan simply because she doesn't fall into bed with them like all of the other nurses do. They also harass Major Burns because of his religious faith. I hardly ever get offended by movies but this is beyond the pale! (Thankfully, the TV series didn't have these problems. They tended to treat Major Houlihan with a lot more respect on the TV series. And while Major Burns was still the butt of most of their jokes & pranks, the TV version was such an obnoxious, petty tyrant that he rightfully deserved every comeuppance he got.)
And trying to further aim the thread in the direction of sci-fi, one of the most heavily sexualized sci-fi movies I've ever seen is The Rocky Horror Picture Show. (Some might say it's more of a musical comedy but it definitely has some sci-fi trappings, being a spoof of cheesy old mad scientist movies from the 1950s.) I've always thought it's quite a misunderstood movie. Most people get hung up on the film's rampant homosexuality & bisexuality. And while that is a major element of the film, my main takeaway from the film is that it's a story about men co-opting the trappings of feminine sexuality because we live in a society that doesn't have any trappings for masculine sexuality. I mean, you have Dr. Frank Further slathered in make-up, wearing stockings & corsets, yet he never pretends that he's not a man and all of his clothing, while "feminine" is nevertheless fitted for a man. Even Rocky--Frank's custom-made muscle-bound boy-toy, the epitome of the "masculine ideal"--winds up in the same outfit at the end, as do all of the female characters.
All that amounts to is that sexism is women's fault. Nice job well and truly missing the point, and that is a very pedestrian attempt to deflect the conversation away from what was being said at the end there.
Umm, yeah, such is life. Happens to both men and women and there's nothing anybody can do about it. Nobody is entitled to anybody else's romantic feelings.
Funny enough, I don't see nearly as many women complaining about being "friend zoned". Maybe we feel less entitled to sex just because we're being nice to our friends?
That is such an old myth.
This is something lonely guys like to tell themselves. They think they're nicer than the guys who actually do have a girlfriend (which isn't true). And for some reason "being nice" is really the only thing that matters?
Being a "nice guy" doesn't entitle people to anything apart from being treated in a nice way, too. It's the most basic form of human decency not to be a jerk so I don't see why being a "nice guy" is all that remarkable anyway. Most people I meet are "nice guys and gals".
And asshole girls have boyfriends, too. Most people have relationships at some point in their lives. It's not remarkable.
The stereotypical "forever alone nerds" aren't forever alone because they're "nice guys". They're alone for other reasons.
How is that an excuse for sexual harassment?
Context matters so there are definitely many times when telling a complete stranger "Hey beautiful, you're hot!" is completely inappropriate.
I don't mind when a guy approaches me like that in a club (and respects if I'm not interested), but having that happen in completely different contexts is wildly inappropriate.
Wow, that is so deep...
I don't think I'd frame it as a control-issue. But it's an issue of objectification and entitlement.
No, I demand nothing of the sort. I demand that they respect my agency and don't feel entitled to my attention, attraction or my body simply because THEY find ME hot.
That depends on what kind of reactions we are talking about.
If we're talking about internal reactions they're welcome to feel whatever they want. Depending on the context (context matters again!) they'd even be welcome to approach me but a "No" is a "No". They'd have to respect that.
And I expect them to understand that the fact that I'm wearing a nice dress does not entitle them to sexually objectify and harass me. Because that would be denying my agency.
If their reactions affect me, then yes: I absolutely do expect them to respect my agency and act appropriately.
Your reasoning is scary and dangerous.
You are complaining about the fact that I expect men to only act in ways I allow them to act regardless of how they feel.
I don't see how that is a valid complaint as long as we're talking about male actions that affect me. OF COURSE they can only go as far as I allow them to go.
Your reasoning leads to men thinking that because I'm wearing a revealing dress I'm causing them to want me and that I have to live with the consequence of them harassing me, feeling entitled to my attention or attraction, or raping me. Because hey, that is how they feel.
I cannot even explain the ice-cold and heavy feeling in my guts when I read your post. I literally felt sick. It is seriously scary and sadly all too common.
I was going to tell you all the reasons your post is ignorant, gross, and wrong @The Borgified Corpse , but @{ Emilia } 's got a good start, and I am weary of explaining things as simple as: Sexually harassing women is bad. Tomorrow perhaps I will have more energy and come back to elaborate.
Women don't need men to comment on their appearance for validation. That's what mirrors and self-esteem are for.
Please do. I could hardly muster the energy to respond to yet another of these kinds of posts. I still replied because it is indeed important but at this point I'm pretty tired and worn out.
And let's not forget, Rocky Horror Picture Show is about an out of control *alien* who coerces anyone it pleases in the guise of a human, raping and murdering them if they don't go along, serving the body as a meal to further conquests. A being that demonstrates throughout that it has no interest in the free will of anything it sets it's eye on.
To the point it's own kind murder it in turn for having gone way too far. Surely you can't be using that as a basis for anything healthy.
To the point it's own kind murder it in turn for having gone way too far. Surely you can't be using that as a basis for anything healthy.
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