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Scifi with aggressive sexuality

I hear ya, i was actually only discussing the fighting back to CLARIFY what another poster had said. I was kind of taken aback at the level of the response.
I was exhausted and having a crap day yesterday, and wasn't arguing as carefully as I usually do. I still don't agree with what you guys said. I think, however unintentional, the whole "just knock him out" thing was an ill-thought comment to make in this thread, and I still think it is indirect victim-blaming, but I could've expressed my thoughts in a less inflammatory way.

As for freezing in fear...I am completely inconsistent in my fear responses and I have no idea why. The times when street harassment has turned physical I've frozen in some cases and acted in others. The guys that pulled me into an alley -- I pulled a box-cutter. The guy that grabbed my shoulders and yelled at me -- I froze. The guy that grabbed my wrists and shook me -- I struggled to get away. Both instances probably lasted about 30 seconds.

When I was five my foster brother tried to make me drink gasoline, and I fought him. I froze when my shirt caught on fire though. During the two major earthquakes that hit Seattle when I was a kid, I acted fast, and I remember during one my younger sister froze and dragged her to the doorframe. I can think of a handful of other incidents I'd rather not detail, but it was the same: half I froze, half I acted.
 
I"ll agree I could have worded my responses better; I don't think anything I said about hitting back could have in any way been interpreted as victim blaming; it certainly was not my intent at all.
I know that there have been times I've been frozen in fear; I don't remember any specific instance but i remember the feeling.
 
When I was around 17/18, I had some random weirdo attack me in the street. It started out just random shouting, but eventually it snowballed into him getting hold of me and physically hurting me (And groping my ass and legs. Apparently to show where 'some f**got' touched him, before my attacker 'smashed the f***ots head in with a brick'.)

So I froze.

Then I tried to pacify.

And eventually I got desperate enough to fucking shove him off and run. Twice my size or not, a potential beating seemed preferable to definitely being pulled into the underground carpark by the guy.

My current job actually required us to get some training on how to deal with violent or disturbed people in close quarters. 'Pacify' and 'run' are still the best options for some circumstances, but they try really hard to drum 'freeze' out of us. People still do though.
 
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Wow, I honestly never thought the kinds of situations you're all talking about actually happened. You hear stories on the news and stuff, but I always thought thy were one in a million kind of things.
 
I gotta ask, has anyone here ever experienced a real-life situation wherein you were paralyzed by fear by something, not exclusively (impending) assault, to the point where you spent at least a good 15 seconds not moving at all despite you still having a significant range of movement?

I'm not trying to mock anyone; I'm just trying to understand how such a thing happens because I myself live a rather comfortable life.

I'm not sure if it was just plain surprise or fear, but yeah, there have been a couple of times. One was a physical assault, one not.

One of my friends also had a gun pointed at him for a couple of minutes and froze. On the other hand, there are times when I've just gone into immediate action so you don't necessarily know which mode is going to kick in when you actually need it.
 
I gotta ask, has anyone here ever experienced a real-life situation wherein you were paralyzed by fear by something, not exclusively (impending) assault, to the point where you spent at least a good 15 seconds not moving at all despite you still having a significant range of movement?

I'm not trying to mock anyone; I'm just trying to understand how such a thing happens because I myself live a rather comfortable life.
Sort of? I'm not exactly sure how my reaction would be 'classified'. But when faced with danger I do two things. One, I meet the baddie's eyes and stare, unblinking. I'm not sure if this is the frozen part but it does seem to disconcert them and buys me some time. This has stood me in good stead with a gun to my head, being bullied and one attempted rape. And my mind is working at the time so I'm not sure it qualifies as a 'frozen' response. The other thing I do is to continue what I was doing and ignore what I've been instructed to do. This worked with two other rape attempts when the rapist tried to get me to go into an alley or put down my school books (that one was combined with the stare.) As part of the frozen thing, though, I can tell you for sure that my throat closes up so that even when I'm out of immediate danger, I literally, physically cannot scream. It comes out as a squeak.
 
Sometimes ignoring them backfires. When I was mugged it started with someone trying to get my attention somewhere outside my field of vision in an alley off to my left. I ignored it and just kept on going and the next thing I knew I was being sucker-punched.
 
I've stopped moving for a few seconds when assessing a situation and deciding on a course of action, like a car accident or a kitchen fire or that time I came home to find my wife unresponsive on the floor due to an accidental OD, for a couple of seconds. I'd say whether or not you freeze is largely dependent on whether or not your brain accepts or rejects the information its receiving, and it can vary from incident to incident.

Outside of one car accident, the most significant threat of imminent physical harm I ever faced was when a guy I knew who had an unrequited crush on a girl I knew suddenly picked up a baseball bat and announced his intention to go find and kill her. I hesitated, presumably because I didn't comprehend how the situation could have escalated so quickly - it literally came out of nowhere - and I assumed he was making some kind of stupid joke until he actually left, and I had to decide whether to phone security or try to stop him myself. Given that he had 4 inches and 50 pounds on me, AND was armed... I probably made the wrong call.
 
Sometimes ignoring them backfires. When I was mugged it started with someone trying to get my attention somewhere outside my field of vision in an alley off to my left. I ignored it and just kept on going and the next thing I knew I was being sucker-punched.
In my case, I was walking and the man claimed to have a knife in his pocket. He was on my right and wanted me to turn right into an alleyway. I kept going and he waited until we came to the next alleyway and then crowded me in from the other side. But it worked out well because that was a block closer to the school and help.
 
She had every right to wear it, it's perfectly true, and of course every man in sight shat their pants and did what they could to shut her up.

Good grief.
 
Ugh, thta's ridiculous. It really baffles me how much trouble guys seem to have with stuff like that. It sounds like the original group might have done some questionable things, but it doesn't sound like they're the KKK or Westborough Baptist Church, or any thing like that. And this was a new group, who split off from the original, so I don't know if it would really be fair to hold the first group's comments or actions against them.
 
I feel like we're running in circles but anyway:

There is enough of a coercion and power imbalance in that story for there to be no real "free choice". Yes, the woman could in theory say "No" but the consequences would be so bad that it'd be asking a lot of her to accept that.

coercion and power imbalance = no free choice
no free choice = no real consent
no consent = rape
After thinking about it some more, I think I'm with you. At first I was getting hung up on the fact that he's not threatening her with anything she isn't already facing at the outset, as she's already in the position of not being able to see her fiancé when she approaches him. But I see now that what's more relevant is that he is using his ability to remove that condition (that's the power imbalance) as leverage to get her to have sex with him even though he knows she doesn't really want to (that's the coercion).

Still, it leads me to wonder where you would draw the line as to what constitutes a "free choice" in response to circumstances where either option has negative consequences attached, and how far such a broad definition of "rape" can be extended by this reasoning. A different but not wholly dissimilar scenario that occurs to me is one in which one spouse gives the other an ultimatum such as "if you won't have sex with me, I'll divorce you." The former doesn't have a right to sex with the latter simply by virtue of marriage, but does one not have a right to terminate the relationship if one isn't finding satisfaction in it, despite the clear ramifications it may have on the other? If the latter partner responds by agreeing to the sex absent true desire in order to avoid dealing with the consequences of a divorce, does that make it an act of rape on the part of the former? (Note: I am not suggesting I view this scenario as representing a healthy or positive relationship by any means; I'm merely attempting to explore the implications the above reasoning regarding "real consent" might have if applied to it.) It seems to me there could be any number of situations where one is faced with a choice in which neither option is attractive in itself, and must decide based on which is less unattractive, but does this really negate the exercise of free will and agency in the matter?

I realize this is a contentious and provocative issue that is very personal to many, so I would just like to emphasize that I intend these inquiries in honesty and respect, and am prepared to listen and consider others' points of view without engaging in flippant sniping or dismissal. (I can only hope that others be willing to point out what seem to them insensitive or problematic aspects of what I've written in the same spirit.) I do not mean to express certainty or condonation of any particular position here, and seek not to justify abuse, but rather to better understand the related reasoning and whatever significant differences might or might not be relevant. I am at your mercy.
 
We are what evolution made us We fight. we love we kill--and everything in between. In earlier times, women may not have been as offended by some men being rather more forward. That person may have looked at a more sensitive suitor as weak. Contrast that to VICE's Ellen Page.

She seems so scared of everything. Her friend is as meek as a kitten. She is very lovely but I would avoid so much as eye contact because she might even find that an assault.

She was perfect in HARD CANDY, a must see that explores the themes we are talking about here. There, power switched back and forth. And yet--it could be said the two folks there actually had a better relationship than a lot of couples. They talked.

This along with HBO's NIGHTINGALE, are very well done.
 
I thought of something. Here is a 2015 interview of a U.S. woman who functioned as a tour guide at a plantation-turned-museum.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8847385/what-i-learned-from-leading-tours-about-slavery-at-a-plantation

She speaks about misconceptions her guests had about slavery. In particular, one man said
As soon as I finished my sentence about the slaves, an expressionless voice behind me intoned, "Were they loyal?" I turned around, and saw a man resting his arms on either side of the door frame behind me, blocking the exit. He looked like he was about to slap me.

I asked him why he would ask that. "They gave 'em food. Gave 'em a place to live," he said. He was just staring into the room, blank in the eyes.

"I think most people would act ‘loyal' to a person who could shoot them for leaving," I said. He and his adult sons keep their arms crossed as they stared at me for the rest of the tour, and I tried to stay toward the middle of the group.
Do y'all think that this train of thought is the kind of culture that can make victims of domestic abuse reluctant to leave their abusers?
 
It's a little known fact that Death and the Maiden was also a romance.

JD said:
Wow, that is a really terrifying attitude.
It's not as uncommon as one would like to think. Generally whenever slavery comes up, a pretty large cross-section of America's "white nationalist" populace will immediately begin to either try to lay the blame on the slaves, deny any connection to it (whether that was brought up or not), or start acting like Mafiosi trying to intimidate a crime reporter (like the guy in the example there). Which I think that last one is probably more common to Klan or other similar racist organizations, but who knows, it's probably not limited to them either.
 
I thought of something. Here is a 2015 interview of a U.S. woman who functioned as a tour guide at a plantation-turned-museum.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8847385/what-i-learned-from-leading-tours-about-slavery-at-a-plantation

She speaks about misconceptions her guests had about slavery. In particular, one man said

Do y'all think that this train of thought is the kind of culture that can make victims of domestic abuse reluctant to leave their abusers?
Not to the extreme that it's legal for victims to get shot if they simply try to leave their abusers, of course, but some women victims of domestic abuse stay with their abusive husbands because they don't believe that they will be able to make it on their own. I don't know what the percentage is, but, from having come into contact with survivors who say that that's why they stayed so long, I know for a fact that they exist.
 
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