There has been a lot of disgusting rhetoric in this thread, true, but none of it has been @{ Emilia } 's doing.
Scifi with aggressive sexuality
- Thread starter JirinPanthosa
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There has been a lot of disgusting rhetoric in this thread, true, but none of it has been @{ Emilia } 's doing.
Yeah, the point was just that we're not holding it against victims if they're not a fucking Aes Sedai (or the Amyrlin to boot).
So it's perfectly okay for women not to fight back and still have the rapist go to jail for rape.
(I think we're in agreement there.)
I'm not even sure what you're referring to. My post?
I thought we were all in agreement that nobody expects victims to fight their rapists.
Yes, exactly.
TBH, I'm in favor of encouraging self-defense, my brother was taking 'krav maga' it's like Israeli jujistu but more, um, direct. There have certainly been stories in the news of women fighting off attackers successfully, and unfortunately its far more common for the defense to be unsuccessful. I just really dislike the idea that people are really helpless, although its probably the truth to some degree for everyone.
YES, THE ATTACKER IS *ALWAYS* AT FAULT! NEVER THE VICTIM! @{ Emilia }
There isn't. I was agreeing with the point she made.
We are. That was agreement with your post.
Ah, makes sense. For a sec I thought you meant my post when you talked about "this disgusting rhetoric".
Oh. Alrighty then. Much apologizings.
I was referring to strength of character rather than force powersYeah, the point was just that we're not holding it against victims if they're not a fucking Aes Sedai (or the Amyrlin to boot).
So it's perfectly okay for women not to fight back and still have the rapist go to jail for rape.
(I think we're in agreement there.)
So I'm assuming the debate is over whether what Sinbad/the boatman did is rape? That is a hard one. I've always thought of rape as being when you don't have the ability to say no, and since the boatman did let her walk and left with the option to say no, I would have to say it isn't rape. It's definitely a horrible, horrible thing to do, but I hesitate to call it rape.
I feel like we're running in circles but anyway:
There is enough of a coercion and power imbalance in that story for there to be no real "free choice". Yes, the woman could in theory say "No" but the consequences would be so bad that it'd be asking a lot of her to accept that.
coercion and power imbalance = no free choice
no free choice = no real consent
no consent = rape
I guess that does make sense. I guess if she felt did feel that she didn't have the ability to say no, then the argument could definitely be made that it was rape. This one really, to me at least, isn't easy of a yes as it would be if he just physically attacked her. If she really was feeling intimidated and like she did have no other choice, then I would have to say it was rape.
I guess to me not being able to see her fiance wouldn't that big of a threat.
EDIT: Sorry I think I must have skipped the original debate.
I guess to me not being able to see her fiance wouldn't that big of a threat.
EDIT: Sorry I think I must have skipped the original debate.
I gotta ask, has anyone here ever experienced a real-life situation wherein you were paralyzed by fear by something, not exclusively (impending) assault, to the point where you spent at least a good 15 seconds not moving at all despite you still having a significant range of movement?
I'm not trying to mock anyone; I'm just trying to understand how such a thing happens because I myself live a rather comfortable life.
I'm not trying to mock anyone; I'm just trying to understand how such a thing happens because I myself live a rather comfortable life.
Not really.
I guess in my mind I played the whole thing very casually.
She asked to go across the river, he said sure if you sleep with me, she no, and he said ok and they parted ways. Then when she comes back, he asks again, and she say yes and they go have sex, he takes her across the river, they part ways and that was that. I guess in my scenario everything was very polite and casual with no real intimidation or anything.
I guess in my mind I played the whole thing very casually.
She asked to go across the river, he said sure if you sleep with me, she no, and he said ok and they parted ways. Then when she comes back, he asks again, and she say yes and they go have sex, he takes her across the river, they part ways and that was that. I guess in my scenario everything was very polite and casual with no real intimidation or anything.
@{ Emilia } I know you weren't disagreeing, and your post did make me go back and reread those posts again -- which I did a ton of times, and while I do see that neither @stardream nor @Jedman67 are intentionally engaging in any kind of victim-blaming, a lot of what is written still reads to me that way (and, from a couple other people's responses, I'm not the only one who read it that way). It just seemed like so much going back to interrogating the victim's role. Like I said in my second post in this tangent, I wasn't trying to stir anything up, I was genuinely curious about the line of thinking that led to initial statement, and I still think the line of thinking presented is problematic.
Yes. On more than one occasion. Unfortunately I tend to be a deer in the headlights.
ETA: And I am completely open to that being a potential contributing factor in me reading more into @stardream's and @Jedman67 's posts about victims acting. I've been in the crappy situation of berating myself for not doing enough that when I see someone saying that suggesting a woman knock her attacker out isn't a form of victim blaming (albeit a roundabout one, and one that I see wasn't intended in the original post), even after all the follow up, I'm still unable to see how it's not.
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I hear ya, i was actually only discussing the fighting back to CLARIFY what another poster had said. I was kind of taken aback at the level of the response.
I was held at gunpoint by two men who pulled up in a car and opened the passenger side door as I was walking to school when I was twelve, and except for slowly backing away from the car and the gun almost unconsciously, I was pretty much frozen in fear for thirty seconds. So much so that the men got angry with my lack of compliance and finally drove off. But that was the longest half minute of my life, and I still remember the incident vividly after all these years.
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