Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But she is already away from he fiancé. Her situation did not get worse when she walked away. It stayed the same.

The point is that the woman is ABOUT to see her lover. She's on her way to him, thanks to the boat. And if the captain puts the kibosh on that, then she will never be able to see her lover again. In what way is that NOT a worse situation than before?

 

[Adam]

again, how does what I said translate into victim blaming, victim guilting or any such?

It doesn't in the context of this story.

 

[Jedman67]

I don't think suggesting a woman knock out her attacker is victim blaming. It's a suggestion which is unrealistic (as is the rest of the story) and still a valid point - she could have tried to physically overpower the dude. IF she was fit, or had the training etc. But if we're assuming the average, woman have something like 80%? or so of the strength of equivalently sized men. Someone who's occupation involves a lot of physical exertion like rowing a boat, or rigging lines on a sailboat etc would have more muscle than someone whose occupation is more domestic. So unless she's trained in anything more complex than basic hand-to-hand self defense, she'd be at a tremendous physical disadvantage if she attempts to physically subdue the boatman in order to take his boat across without his permission.

That is literally what "shifting the burden of guilt means"!

How the fuck do you see that?

 

[Jedman67]

*IF* SHE COULD HAVE FOUGHT HIM =/= WHY THE HELL DIDNT YOU FIGHT HIM?

How on earth is any of that victim blaming?

 

[BigJake]

You know what this thread needs? More deliberately provocative hairsplitting immediately followed by indignant "who, me?!" pearl-clutching. I just, I don't know, I can't get enough of that.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It's victim-blaming because it suggests there is an expectation that the victim of a bad act perpetrated by someone else has an obligation to avoid or prevent it. That is, it puts the responsibility on the victim. It's blaming.

 

[thestrangequark]

@Jedman67 The post of yours to which I responded, and the post which I quoted was:

again, how does what I said translate into victim blaming, victim guilting or any such?

Which you wrote in response to Adam's post:

In real life this would be an inacceptable shifting of the burden of guilt towards the victim.

And I know you were responding it, because you quoted it.

"Shifting the burden of guilt" literally means "blaming", in this case: victims. Hence my response: "That is literally what 'shifting the burden of guilt" means!"

 

[{ Emilia }]

In real life this would be an inacceptable shifting of the burden of guilt towards the victim.

Up until very recently (a few weeks ago) the ridiculous laws in the country I live in stipulated that for a rape to actually count as rape, a woman needs to actually fight the attacker and not just say "No".

I'm 5'7'' (169cm) and around 120 lbs (54kg). I do plenty of sports and I'm pretty fit. I've also taken a self-defense class. But I have no fucking clue if I'd fight a potential rapist. Quite frankly it'd depend on how violent and strong the guy seems and on the situation.
I know this is a grim thought (and it's sad that women have to consider stuff like this) but getting raped and killed sounds even worse than getting raped.

So yeah, I am very allergic to victim blaming and "Why didn't she fight back?" rhetoric.

Having said that I didn't read what @stardream and @Jedman67 said that way. It didn't sound like they expect women to fight back. It sounded like they were just fantasizing about how cool it would be if fighting back were easy and every woman could just knock her attacker out.
They did point out that nobody expects women to risk that or am I reading you guys wrong?
And didn't @Jedman67 specifically point out that the expectation that women fight back is nonsense and unrealistic?

 

[thestrangequark]

And, @Robert Maxwell explained why it is victim blaming very succinctly.

 

[Jedman67]

It's victim-blaming because it suggests there is an expectation that the victim of a bad act perpetrated by someone else has an obligation to avoid or prevent it. That is, it puts the responsibility on the victim. It's blaming.

Uhm no. Not at all. *should have* is victim blaming. This is not *should have*.

 

[stardream]

It sounded like they were just fantasizing about how cool it would be if fighting back were easy and every woman could just knock her attacker out.

That's all it was and that's all I'm going to say about it. I suppose I watch too much sci/fi and fantasy. If anyone wants to talk more about it feel free to send me a pm but this thread is not going to be about 'me'.

 

[Adam]

The point is that the woman is ABOUT to see her lover. She's on her way to him, thanks to the boat. And if the captain puts the kibosh on that, then she will never be able to see her lover again. In what way is that NOT a worse situation than before?

Is she entitled to use the boat and did the sailor create the conditions under which she can't get to her fiancé?
The answer to the first part of the question would be No. We can agree on that?
Is the answer to the second part Yes, then lock the fucker up. He took action with intend to rape. Is it No, then his demands are immoral and wrong, but he is under no obligation to help her. A decent human being would help. But that character, as proposed, is not a decent person.

Her situation before and after the encounter with the sailor is the same.

 

[thestrangequark]

I appreciate your perspective, @{ Emilia } , and, especially in @stardream 's case (because I know his posting history) I don't think any victim-blaming was intentional, but it's still there. There's still an expectation of fight. What if the woman doesn't try to fight at all? What if she's bigger and stronger than the guy, but still doesn't fight because she's shocked or scared for other reasons? Or just misjudges or doubts her own ability? Or freezes? I brought up my own size and the unrealistic expectation to make a point about how blatant one specific statement was, but perhaps that was a mistake. It's not an expectation that should be on any victim.

I just keep thinking of an account I read of a man raped by a woman. He wrote about how he knew he could physically fight her, but there were numerous reasons he didn't feel he could in the situation.

Everything they're writing still screams "Why didn't she fight harder?" to me.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm obviously not disagreeing with anything you just wrote.

I think both @Jedman67 and @stardream have since stated that they don't expect women to fight back, though? It's possible that I'm mixing something up. I'm multitasking right now.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The answer to the first part of the question would be No. We can agree on that?

Afraid not.

The woman is a passenger on a ship. She is there legally. She is absolutely entitled to receive passage on that ship.

 

[Jedman67]

Having said that I didn't read what @stardream and @Jedman67 said that way. It didn't sound like they expect women to fight back. It sounded like they were just fantasizing about how cool it would be if fighting back were easy and every woman could just knock her attacker out.

Its not fantasy. It's very unrealistic for most women to be able to fight back effectively for the very basic reason that the average man is stronger than the average woman. I did know a few who would be able to hand any attacker their heads (or balls, as it were) but I certainly hope they never have to put it to the test!
In a nutshell, I am very much in favor of anyone (not just women) using any tools at their disposal to stop any attack of any nature. Unfortunately, reality is that the vast majority of people - myself included - wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight if they get attacked.

They did point out that nobody expects women to risk that or am I reading you guys wrong?

I don't "expect" anything. It's not my place to "expect" something for which I can't put myself in someone elses shoes. What you "should" do in the unthinkable situation that a man attacks you with intent to rape is entirely up to you. And as i've said before, anyone who rapes or attempts to rape another person should have the book thrown at them.

 

[JD]

Where is the story you're discussing? I skipped over a bunch of pages, but now I'm curious to see exactly how the story went.

 

[Adam]

Up until very recently (a few weeks ago) the ridiculous laws in the country I live in stipulated that for a rape to actually count as rape, a woman needs to actually fight the attacker and not just say "No".

I'm 5'7'' (169cm) and around 120 lbs (54kg). I do plenty of sports and I'm pretty fit. I've also taken a self-defense class. But I have no fucking clue if I'd fight a potential rapist. Quite frankly it'd depend on how violent and strong the guy seems and on the situation.
I know this is a grim thought (and it's sad that women have to consider stuff like this) but getting raped and killed sounds even worse than getting raped.

So yeah, I am very allergic to victim blaming and "Why didn't she fight back?" rhetoric.

Having said that I didn't read what @stardream and @Jedman67 said that way. It didn't sound like they expect women to fight back. It sounded like they were just fantasizing about how cool it would be if fighting back were easy and every woman could just knock her attacker out.
They did point out that nobody expects women to risk that or am I reading you guys wrong?
And didn't @Jedman67 specifically point out that the expectation that women fight back is nonsense and unrealistic?

Everyone's toe and fingernails should roll up in disgust by that kind of rhetoric.

The poster in question asked this in reference to the situation of that story. As presented that sailor does not threaten or indicate any physical violence should the fiancée not accept this 'request'.

 

[Jedman67]

In terms of Fantasy, I'd prefer to see characters such as Egwene al'Vere, Jadzia Dax or Zoe Washburn than Deanna Troi or any of the classical female tropes. But that's a different topic of conversation.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I don't "expect" anything. It's not my place to "expect" something for which I can't put myself in someone elses shoes. What you "should" do in the unthinkable situation that a man attacks you with intent to rape is entirely up to you. And as i've said before, anyone who rapes or attempts to rape another person should have the book thrown at them.

Well, I guess I did read it right then? A rape is a rape, no matter if the victim dares to fight back? And expecting a fight is unrealistic?
If that's what you're saying I'm not seeing actual victim blaming here.