Saw it again. Some new thoughts.

[Ovation]

No it can't!!!! Starfleet Academy is an exact duplicate of current US military academies and therefore must work exactly the same way in order to be acceptable!!!!!1!!!!!!11!


(I have reservations about the swiftness of his promotion to captain, but I also don't expect "realism" in heroic tales)

 

[Jeri]

No it can't!!!! Starfleet Academy is an exact duplicate of current US military academies and therefore must work exactly the same way in order to be acceptable!!!!!1!!!!!!11!


(I have reservations about the swiftness of his promotion to captain, but I also don't expect "realism" in heroic tales)

Well, that's true; they don't have an official "cabin boy" position at the academy.

 

[Vigilance]

Admiral Nelson received his first command at the ripe old age of 20.

After seven years at sea.

Which was only one less than the 8 years to Captain that Pike seemed to think was a lock for Kirk. Clearly, being involved in saving Planet Earth speeds up the promotion process somewhat.

I mean, are you really quibbling wioth the fact that the greatest FICTIONAL hero took less time to do something than someone real?

 

[theFirebottle]

What's this "argued to death" business? Who could possibly argue that the Federation has a military force OTHER than Starfleet?

Maybe I'm just old and the topic hasn't come up again lately, but I've seen this bickered over so many times I'm sick of it.

Yes, Starfleet often talks like a military, but from the top to the bottom on all possible dimensions, it rarely walks like a military (even a notional 23rd century military). If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. But if it's a college student walking around an amusement park in a duck suit earning money to pay down her college loans...

 

[Vigilance]

And of course, there's also Jimmy Doolittle, who skipped a step in rank, from Lt. Colonel to Brig. General following the Doolittle Raid in WWII.

Exceptional activities (like saving the Planet Earth) call for fast promotion.

If Kirk was a full Lieutenant following graduation from SFA, then he would have skipped two ranks. That really doesn't seem out of bounds with his accomplishment.

You can say a lot of things about Star Fleet, but they recognize actual achievment.

I guess some here would prefer after taking command of a ship and saving the entire planet Earth that Kirk then be asked by Starfleet to step back down and serve as a helmsman on some other ship for several years.

Starfleet was CLEARLY desperate for manpower. Pike considered it a lock Kirk would have his own ship in 8 years.

But, exceptional achievment and extraordinary circumstances sped that up a little.

 

[Vigilance]

Stephen Decatur- Midshipman 1798; Lieutenant 1799; Captain 1804; So 6 years.

And he was 25 at the time he was named Captain.

As a lieutenant during the Barbary Wars he commanded a little schooner called Enterprise.

What this movie depicts, Captain by 25 through bravery in a crisis, is not that uncommon in the history of naval warfare of the age of sail, which Trek has a much closer tie to than any sort of modern military.

Captain on his own? Check.

Out of contact with home base and out of range of immediate help, forced to rely on his own judgement? Check.

Harsh discipline? Check (at least in this movie, where Kirk was marooned).

It might have been sold as Wagon Train to the Stars, but it's really more Master and Commander to the Stars.

 

[AJBryant]

If Kirk was a full Lieutenant following graduation from SFA, then he would have skipped two ranks. That really doesn't seem out of bounds with his accomplishment.

He hadn't graduated. He was in his THIRD YEAR. And when you graduate, you are an ensign.

He went from a third-year cadet (a junior, for god's sake) to CAPTAIN -- from O-zero to O6 in five minutes.

You can say a lot of things about Star Fleet, but they recognize actual achievment.

Yeah, I recognize that. But a *singular* achievement does not negate the need for training and experience.

Unless they explain some weird reason that Kirk is WAY older than he should be, a junior is typically 21 years old.

I'm sorry, but for all the fun this movie is, that stuff just strains my credulity to the breaking point.

 

[Ovation]

Try the fact that he is 25 (as per the dates in the movie itself), for one.

 

[Neopeius]

Admiral Nelson received his first command at the ripe old age of 20.

After seven years at sea.

Which was only one less than the 8 years to Captain that Pike seemed to think was a lock for Kirk. Clearly, being involved in saving Planet Earth speeds up the promotion process somewhat.

I mean, are you really quibbling wioth the fact that the greatest FICTIONAL hero took less time to do something than someone real?

Nope. This was never a sticking point for me.

Seeing how Starfleet seems to be populated by the least competent citizens of the Federation, it doesn't surprise me that there would be a high attrition rate and a quick rise in "ranks". I say "ranks" because Starfleet is not a "military" organization despite it's "crews" and "starships" having "weapons of mass and personal destruction".

So, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's military, what is? And if your answer is, "The Federation doesn't have a military--it just has a Starfleet full of armed vessels for protection against enemies domestic and foreign," then I think that says it all.

 

[ST-One]

If Kirk was a full Lieutenant following graduation from SFA, then he would have skipped two ranks. That really doesn't seem out of bounds with his accomplishment.

He hadn't graduated. He was in his THIRD YEAR. And when you graduate, you are an ensign.

He went from a third-year cadet (a junior, for god's sake) to CAPTAIN -- from O-zero to O6 in five minutes.

You can say a lot of things about Star Fleet, but they recognize actual achievment.

Yeah, I recognize that. But a *singular* achievement does not negate the need for training and experience.

Unless they explain some weird reason that Kirk is WAY older than he should be, a junior is typically 21 years old.

I'm sorry, but for all the fun this movie is, that stuff just strains my credulity to the breaking point.

Don't you people pay any attention at all? Kirk is 25 in that movie.

 

[ST-One]

After seven years at sea.

Which was only one less than the 8 years to Captain that Pike seemed to think was a lock for Kirk. Clearly, being involved in saving Planet Earth speeds up the promotion process somewhat.

I mean, are you really quibbling wioth the fact that the greatest FICTIONAL hero took less time to do something than someone real?

Nope. This was never a sticking point for me.

Seeing how Starfleet seems to be populated by the least competent citizens of the Federation, it doesn't surprise me that there would be a high attrition rate and a quick rise in "ranks". I say "ranks" because Starfleet is not a "military" organization despite it's "crews" and "starships" having "weapons of mass and personal destruction".

So, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's military, what is? And if your answer is, "The Federation doesn't have a military--it just has a Starfleet full of armed vessels for protection against enemies domestic and foreign," then I think that says it all.

Of course Starfleet serves as the Federations military.

 

[Vger]

It doesn't seem realistic to me to keep alot of them onboard when you have transporters.

You have a accident in the middle of space with no other ships around. Where do you transport to?

I will await your answer

Are you being a smartass with that last comment ? If you are you can shove it.

I would imagine in most cases they would be able to reach a place they could transport to but in other situations where that is not possible I can see escape pods coming into play.

Until this movie I never saw or read anywhere where they kept that many shuttles on a ship. It doesn't seem realistic to me to keep that many. It's a waste. They have to take up space and the hangar bays I've come to known don't appear to handle that amount.

 

[ST-One]

It doesn't seem realistic to me to keep alot of them onboard when you have transporters.

You have a accident in the middle of space with no other ships around. Where do you transport to?

I will await your answer

Are you being a smartass with that last comment ? If you are you can shove it.

I would imagine in most cases they would be able to reach a place they could transport to but in other situations where that is not possible I can see escape pods coming into play.

Until this movie I never saw or read anywhere where they kept that many shuttles on a ship. It doesn't seem realistic to me to keep that many. It's a waste. They have to take up space and the hangar bays I've come to known don't appear to handle that amount.

Mhmm... the Ambassador-Class has two shuttle bays, also the Excelsior and the Sovereign, the Galaxy has three such bays. Why, if not for an awful lot of shuttles, would those ships even need more than one shuttle bay?

 

[Vigilance]

He hadn't graduated. He was in his THIRD YEAR. And when you graduate, you are an ensign.

Well first, Pike says Kirk could be done with the Academy in 4 years and he says "I'll do it in 3". Then it says "3 years later". So the implication was that he graduated early.

He went from a third-year cadet (a junior, for god's sake) to CAPTAIN -- from O-zero to O6 in five minutes.

Again, he was a graduate not a cadet.

You can say a lot of things about Star Fleet, but they recognize actual achievment.

Yeah, I recognize that. But a *singular* achievement does not negate the need for training and experience.

Clearly, he didn't NEED any more training or experience. He took command of a ship that was set to not aid Earth *at all*, turned the situation around, and literally saved the planet.

Clearly, he knew what he needed to know.

Unless they explain some weird reason that Kirk is WAY older than he should be, a junior is typically 21 years old.

I'm sorry, but for all the fun this movie is, that stuff just strains my credulity to the breaking point.

Kirk is 25.

And again, Horation Nelson was a Captain at 20 and Stephen Decatur was commanding the Enterprise at 19 and was a full Captain by 25.

Your definition of "strains credulity" flies right in the face of naval military history.

The military structure of the 20th century, where promotion is based on tenure as much as anything, is certainly not the only way competent fleets have ever been organized.

In fact, history has frequently been written by extremely young, "inexperienced " men taking command of troops.

Alexander the Great had conquered the known world by the time he was 30. Talk about straining credulity! Except, you know, it actually happened.

Sorry, what Kirk does doesn't seem that far beyond things I know for a fact actually happened, so I am fine with them happening in adventure fiction where there are FTL ships, teleporters and touch telepaths.

 

[Ovation]

He hadn't graduated. He was in his THIRD YEAR. And when you graduate, you are an ensign.

Well first, Pike says Kirk could be done with the Academy in 4 years and he says "I'll do it in 3". Then it says "3 years later". So the implication was that he graduated early.

He went from a third-year cadet (a junior, for god's sake) to CAPTAIN -- from O-zero to O6 in five minutes.

Again, he was a graduate not a cadet.

Yeah, I recognize that. But a *singular* achievement does not negate the need for training and experience.

Clearly, he didn't NEED any more training or experience. He took command of a ship that was set to not aid Earth *at all*, turned the situation around, and literally saved the planet.

Clearly, he knew what he needed to know.

Unless they explain some weird reason that Kirk is WAY older than he should be, a junior is typically 21 years old.

I'm sorry, but for all the fun this movie is, that stuff just strains my credulity to the breaking point.

Kirk is 25.

And again, Horation Nelson was a Captain at 20 and Stephen Decatur was commanding the Enterprise at 19 and was a full Captain by 25.

Your definition of "strains credulity" flies right in the face of naval military history.

The military structure of the 20th century, where promotion is based on tenure as much as anything, is certainly not the only way competent fleets have ever been organized.

In fact, history has frequently been written by extremely young, "inexperienced " men taking command of troops.

Alexander the Great had conquered the known world by the time he was 30. Talk about straining credulity! Except, you know, it actually happened.

Sorry, what Kirk does doesn't seem that far beyond things I know for a fact actually happened, so I am fine with them happening in adventure fiction where there are FTL ships, teleporters and touch telepaths.

Well said.

 

[Vger]

Mhmm... the Ambassador-Class has two shuttle bays, also the Excelsior and the Sovereign, the Galaxy has three such bays. Why, if not for an awful lot of shuttles, would those ships even need more than one shuttle bay?

Who knows for sure ? Archer's Enterprise had two bays. Did that mean they had a dozen shuttles ? Just because they have more than one bay doesn't necessarily indicate the number of shuttles a ship has. At least that's the impression I have. Anything in the technical manuals they released give an indication on how many were on a ship ?

 

[ST-One]

Well, the NX-01 wasn't 762 metres long (the new Enterprise) or had a dedicated hull for the shuttle-bay (the Kelvin).

 

[aelius]

The blueprints of the E D, as well as the TNG tech manual indicate a shuttle compliment of over 50.

 

[superdeluxe]

Are you being a smartass with that last comment ? If you are you can shove it.

.

I was actually wanting a response to my question. And you responded

 

[Vger]

Are you being a smartass with that last comment ? If you are you can shove it.

.

I was actually wanting a response to my question. And you responded

lol..okay. I took it another way.