Saucers are Overused in Federation Designs
- Thread starter Arpy
- Start date
I think you're arguing for easy mediocrity. I think what made Trek great initially is that it set a higher bar, competing against Lost In Space, or Flash Gordon before that. I think general audiences and fans alike sense when they're seeing something special, even when they can't adequately verbalize it. No one thought the Scimitar was special, who cares how wicket-looking it was or how many dozens of weapons it bristled with. The soul knows when it's being asked to rise to the occasion and when it's being asked to just play along. I don't want to play along.
It feels like you are attempting to draw a parallel to continued use of a saucer/nacelles configuration (which you equate to "lazy") and a perceived decline in storytelling quality.
I've been sort of following this thread and I think it's important to point out that they did in fact move away from the saucer. The defiant was turtle shaped. Voyager was spoon shaped or arrow-head shaped.
I think it's also important to point out that designing these hero ships is anything but "lazy." The artists involved worked very hard on each and every one of them. They are so detailed. Decks, and airlocks, and scale, and configurations, and blah blah blah is all put into these designs.
Starfleet ships should have a continuity. They all use similar technology.
Usually it's writers that are called lazy, and not art directors or designers. Either way, it's unjustified. Everyone involved in these productions worked their asses off under immense pressure.
I've been sort of following this thread and I think it's important to point out that they did in fact move away from the saucer. The defiant was turtle shaped. Voyager was spoon shaped or arrow-head shaped.
I think it's also important to point out that designing these hero ships is anything but "lazy." The artists involved worked very hard on each and every one of them. They are so detailed. Decks, and airlocks, and scale, and configurations, and blah blah blah is all put into these designs.
Starfleet ships should have a continuity. They all use similar technology.
Usually it's writers that are called lazy, and not art directors or designers. Either way, it's unjustified. Everyone involved in these productions worked their asses off under immense pressure.
Very well said!
Not at all. I'm Defending the show as entertainment which walks the line of both pushing the boundaries of it's genre, AND being an approachable. Along with the latter comes simple things that some hardcore fans not only take for granted, but in fact deride, while not realizing that they also play an integral part in the success of a show. Whether people can respect it as high art or not, red, blue & yellow uniforms were a simple trait that made the show familiar to ALL television viewers, & so were saucer ships. It not only makes sense as a clear marker for a show to become familiar, but as Prax pointed out, it makes sense in the context of the story, for them to have similar designs too. It's not like it has no real world relevance. Vehicle designers frequent similar designs all the time.
Honestly, if anyone had ever needed it as a plot point, someone would've concocted some reason why they used saucers(Unless they did & I missed it) like the warp field responds better to it or something, & then there'd be canon to support it, which would quell all this stuff about it being lazy art design. It's not lazy. It's consistent, & such a thing is pretty darned important for a show to thrive
You can get a lot of good practice for the Prometheus School of Running Away from Things* on that ship!
(that's a common line in the Youtube channel CinemaSins, reviewing films where people run in a straight line instead of veering into another other direction whatsoever))
The validity of your logical, intelligent and well-balanced argument immediately falls apart whenever someone with a contrary, deep-seeded, and unimportant stance on the issue decides to engage in a debate for no other reason than the joy of argument.
No, I think you guys are entirely wrong. It IS letting the bar slip lower, with the excuse of it being a matter of "National Securi-"...er...that is...it being simply "entertainment." Ok, but I'm suggesting better entertainment, closer to what it's already been.
Mojochi, you're missing the point of it being the OVERuse of saucers, not the use of them altogether.
Again, it's in the title of the thread. I'm discussing design, no different than if we were going over the vector of a curve in a product font. It's esoteric a subject, but that's the thread.
Mojochi, you're missing the point of it being the OVERuse of saucers, not the use of them altogether.
Again, it's in the title of the thread. I'm discussing design, no different than if we were going over the vector of a curve in a product font. It's esoteric a subject, but that's the thread.
I got what you're saying, & what I'm saying is that it's analogous to saying Sith light sabers overuse red. No they don't. It's what they do. They didn't have to. They could've just had Vader's be the only red one & Maul's & Ren's could've been orange or yellow or something, but they didn't do that, because they didn't WANT to. They wanted red to be the color that the bad guys use. That's not lazy. It's consistency, & consistency ain't lazy. It's got its own reasons, reasons like brand recognition, continuity, & easy eye markers for new viewers, etc....
You act like it's some lazy decision to fall back on old designs, to avoid work, but, it's actually harder to reuse a design element like saucers, in new ways people might not have seen before. They do it, because it's a deliberate choice to have them be a part of the narrative. There's nothing wrong with that imho
For you, can there ever be too much saucer?
For ages, Trek DIDN'T overuse saucers. The Constitution, the Daedalus, the Miranda, the Oberth, the Excelsior, etc. They all had secondary hulls or, in the case of the Miranda, additions that took their place. The tech/choices made sense.
It's not harder to reuse the same design. Ask any designer. It's, for those less mercenary, harder being asked to not be as creative as they might like, but it's harder because the job easier.
I don't know if the designers dropped the secondary hulls themselves or the producers did (they chose to eliminate the neck on the E-E), but, again, I think it has to do with a shallower understanding of the elements that made people sit up in their chairs initially. People don't just want to see brands (known cliches) they want to see the star trek (the vision of things to come). They know the cliche. They want the true.
For example, I see in the NX a visual manifestation of everything commonly regarded wrong thematically with the series.
For ages, Trek DIDN'T overuse saucers. The Constitution, the Daedalus, the Miranda, the Oberth, the Excelsior, etc. They all had secondary hulls or, in the case of the Miranda, additions that took their place. The tech/choices made sense.
It's not harder to reuse the same design. Ask any designer. It's, for those less mercenary, harder being asked to not be as creative as they might like, but it's harder because the job easier.
I don't know if the designers dropped the secondary hulls themselves or the producers did (they chose to eliminate the neck on the E-E), but, again, I think it has to do with a shallower understanding of the elements that made people sit up in their chairs initially. People don't just want to see brands (known cliches) they want to see the star trek (the vision of things to come). They know the cliche. They want the true.
For example, I see in the NX a visual manifestation of everything commonly regarded wrong thematically with the series.
Glad I'm not the only one who saw that. I feel like the Saucer has become a strawman to beat up because the designs don't match up with other possible configurations.
Two, actually. Defiant and Crusher's ship, the USS Pasteur, based on the spherical-hulled Daedalus design (three if you count the Daedalus desk model as well).
ST09's Jellyfish may not count, as I think it was supposed to be a non-Starfleet Vulcan-made ship, just like TNG's "Apollo class".
Those of you commenting are not seeing it and I'm tired of explaining at this point -- especially as there's so much Discovery goodness going on.
Not it isn't about the NX alone. At this point I'm going to add a "duh," because I feel you're just not trying.
I said pages ago, and time and again, that it wasn't about getting rid of saucers or ships not having them. If you're interested in knowing what I mean, read what I've already said and re-linked. I think it's interesting stuff -- that's why I shared. If you're honest-to-God baffled, start a private conversation and I'll re-link to specific passages, if I'm not thinking about Discovery.
LLAP
Not it isn't about the NX alone. At this point I'm going to add a "duh," because I feel you're just not trying.
I said pages ago, and time and again, that it wasn't about getting rid of saucers or ships not having them. If you're interested in knowing what I mean, read what I've already said and re-linked. I think it's interesting stuff -- that's why I shared. If you're honest-to-God baffled, start a private conversation and I'll re-link to specific passages, if I'm not thinking about Discovery.
LLAP
If you come back, don't bring the attitude.
Defiant looks the best, but I surprisingly like the NX-01 with blue nacelle caps.
