Same something nice about traditionally poorly held TOS eps

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Dale Sams, Apr 14, 2020.

  1. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

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    I wonder if there is a high turnover rate of Emperors and Senators in the Romulan Star Empire, especially after several disastrous Federation encounters. First, they test and lose in a ship-on-ship combat with their best flagship. :ouch: Then, even in a 10-to-one ship battle, the Federation ship just sits in the middle of an onslaught, then just up and leaves without firing a shot. :eek: Next, they enter an costly alliance with the smelly Klingons :barf2: for more advanced ships, only to find that the Federation can still come and go at will in Romulan space even at three-to-one odds without firing a shot. :mad: I think they need to re-address their policy toward the Federation. Time to play nice and plot to stab them in the back, later. :rommie:
     
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  2. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't see how anyone could have known that taking the Enterprise into Romulan space would not result in a bloody war wilth millions of people killed. I don't see how anyone could have known that the Enterprise would not be attacked or would survive an attack.

    So I don't think that Tong Rad knew what he could get away with. I think that Tongo Rad was very lucky he didn't get vaporized by a Romulan attack during his joyride. And if Tongo Rad cares about the lives of others he is very lucky that he didn't cause millions of deaths.

    Unless Tongo rad had secret information about Romulan patrols he was just lucky to survive long enough for the attitude of the Federation government about potential punishment to be important to him.

    And if I was in charge of the Federation government I would want to punish all of the space hippies, including Tongo rad for recklessly risking a Romulan war.
     
  3. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

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    This brings up what is the law if you (a private citizen) violates a treaty between two nations. I can see citizen of nation A being assessed/tried/executed for trespassing into nation B, but what is the crime to nation A? If a warship/aircraft from nation A drifts into nation B territory, they have the right to capture it/destroy it, but they never go to war with nation A, even if the craft escapes back into nation A territory. Nation A may want to go to war with B to recover the crew and ship, but even they just take it and hope to get the crew back, eventually. If citizen of nation A steals a ship from nation A and it is recovered, irregardless of where he takes it, then it is grand theft and reckless endangerment of 430 people only to nation A. Diplomatic Immunity might protect you from those charges. If he is charged with attempted murder of 430 people, then I doubt it would protect you, but it might. If Tongo Rad foiled the murder attempt, then he is clear of those charges. I think Tongo has been playing these games for years and knows how to game the system. I'm surprised that the Catullan government haven't replace their ambassador, yet. Then again, in their culture, this might be considered desirable behavior, similar to kidnapping Tasha Yar by Lutan on Ligon Two.
     
  4. Foxhot

    Foxhot Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Jan Shutan rocks in ZETAR.
     
  5. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In "Balance of Terror" Spock describes the Neutral Zone:

    So clearly the Romulans would have legal grounds to consider a starfship trespassing into Romulan space, or even into the neutral Zone, to be an act of war and respond with a new war with the Federation if they desired. The Federation clearly fears that if a starship enters the Neutral Zone, the Romulans might automatically go to war. So Henoch's statement that country B would never go to war if a warship from country A entered their territory is clearly not certain in the case of the Romulans, where the treaty specifically says that entering the Neutral Zone, let alone Romulan Territory, counts as an act of war. .
     
  6. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Romulans and the Klingons are always spouting off about how the Federation and it's ships are breaking the treaty and constituting an act of war despite they're many attempts at sabotage and raiding the many outposts along the borders! :lol:
    JB
     
  7. Foxhot

    Foxhot Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just wait until you catch Kirk's 10-minute fight with Steve Martin in SHORE LEAVE.:borg:
     
  8. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No.
     
  9. Foxhot

    Foxhot Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes. Shatner was bonkers.
     
  10. Spockskin

    Spockskin Commodore Premium Member

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    So, when Kirk goes into Romulan space and steals a cloaking device (and kidnaps a Romulan Commander), I guess we just missed the interstellar war that broke out. :shrug:
     
  11. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Possibly. If the Romulan goverment decides to go to war they have a causus belli.

    And my often mentioned theory is that every long and episodic television series probably happens in lots of different alternate universes. Each and every episode of such a series should be in an alternate universe of its own, except for a few episodes which are sequels to other episodes.

    So possibly there was a big war with the Romulans after "The Enterprise Incident" which was never seen because all other episodes were in alternate universes where "The Enterprise Incident" and the resulting war never happened.

    I note that DS9 was much less episodic than TOS and had some story arcs that spanned many episodes. But in several episodes Odo arrested Quark and said that Quark would go to prison for his crimes, but Quark never did. So to me that indicates that episodes with Quark still in business on DS9 must not be sequels to any of the episodes where Odo got proof of Quark's major crimes and thus should happen in alternate universes to those episodes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  12. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Quark did go to jail (not prison)...but Trek sentences are amazingly light. When it serves the plot.
     
  13. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Well, just because something can be interpreted as an act of war doesn't mean there has to be a war. "The Enterprise Incident" was inspired by the1968 USS Pueblo incident, when North Korea captured a US Navy vessel and took the entire crew prisoner. No war resulted.
     
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  14. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wrote a long reply to this the other day but I lost it.

    Short Comment:

    According to my chronological calculations, there should have been a big war with the Klingons not long before Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and i think that there is good reason to believe that Ambassador Nunclus was responsible for saving the Federadtion by arranging a military alliance with the Romulans to defeat the Klingons. This he was influential enough to be invited to secret meetings.

    Long Comment:

    According to the official, but not necessarily canon or correct chronology, the TNG episodes "The Emissary" and "Unification Part 1" & "Unification part 2" happen in AD 2365 and AD 2368 respectively.

    In "Unification Part 1":

    So sArek believes that Spock first met Pardek at the Khitomer Conference.

    In "Unification Part 2":

    Assuming that Pardek meant 75 to 85 Earth years, Pardek should have become friends with Spock about AD 2283 to 2293 if the official chronology is correct, and they presumably became friends at the Khitomer Conference during and after Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which should thus have been sometime in the period of 2283 to 2293.

    In "The Emissary":

    So if "over 75 years" is 75 to 80 years, or maybe 75 to 100 years, the possible date when the T"Ong left on its mission would have been between AD 2285 and 2290, or maybe between AD 2265 and 2290 - if the official chronology is correct.

    Thus the T'Ong could have been sent out either before, during, or after Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which should have been sometime in the period of 2283 to 2293.

    The way they expect that the Klingons will attack any Federation outposts they find seems to prove that when the T'Ong was sent there was an all out war between the Federation and the Klingons, and that the Klingons in that era expected that the war would last until the Federation was totally fe defeated and conquered bythe klings, even if it took many decades. the attitude of the Klingons on the T'Ong shows that they came from a era of war with the Federation, not rivalry or cold war but all out war. And they say three times that the when the Klingons left there was a war on.

    So the attitude in "The Emissary" is that when the T'Ong was sen ton its mission and before peace was made the Klingons were at war with the Federation, and perhaps had been almost constantly at war with the Federation for a long time, perhaps for many decades or centuries, so that the crew of the T'Ong would not imagine peace with an unconquered Federation.

    If the T'Ong was sent on its mission after the events in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country that would show that all that the heroes endured in the cause of peace in that movie was for nothing and war resumed soon after the movie, and someone else, like Riva in "Loud as a Whisper" was responsible for making peace between the Federation and the Klingons. And certainly fans of the TOS crew would not think that was a good idea! .

    Since the Klingon chancellor Gorkon was already considering making peace with the Federation at the beginning of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which probably didn't last a very long time anyway, it is unlikely that the T'Ong was sent on its mission during Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

    And this is when the Excelsior encounters the shock wave from the explosion of Praxis at the beginning of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country:

    So Sulu offers assistance during the disaster to the Klingons, which would be a little unusual during a war with the Klingons, and the Klingon Kerla tells Sulu to obey treaty stipulations and remain outside the Neutral Zone. Taht seems to pretty much prove there is a peace treaty with the Klingons at the beginning of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

    So that leaves the period before Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country for the T'Ong being sent on its mysterious long term mission.

    So that leaves a period of possibly as much as 28 years between 265? and 2290? and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country sometime between 2283? and 2293? when the T'Ong might have left.

    And from the way that the characters talk in "The Emissary",and from what Spock says in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country about:

    There could have been almost 70 years before Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country of almost constant warfare between the Klingons and the Federation. Possibly there was one year of short lived peace for every five years or ten years of warfare, for example, during that almost 70 year period..

    The inconclusive Battle of Donatu Five 23 years before "The Trouble With Tribbles" could have been a vast battle in a long and bloody war with the Klingons, or maybe it was just a minor frontier skirmish during a time of peace with the Klingons.

    There is peace with the Klingons for most of TOS and TAS.

    In "Errand of Mercy":

    And:

    Fortunately the war seems to last just a matter of days before a peace is imposed.

    In "Friday's Child":

    In "The Trouble With Tribbles":

    In "A Private Little War":

    In "The Day of the Dove":

    However, there is little evidence for how much war and how much peace there was in the period between TOS and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

    If stardate units have a fixed relationship with the passage of time on planets, and if only the last four digits of stardates with more digits are used in the era of TOS there could be 11,466.5 stardates instead of only 1,466.5 stardates between "All Our Yesterdays" at 5943.7 and Star Trek: The Motion Picture at 7410.2, ans 10,720.1 stardates instead of only 720.1 between Star Trek: The Motion Picture at 7410.2 and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan at 8130.3.

    The movies between Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan at 8130.3.and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier at 8454.1 all seem to happen within a few months of fictional time, certainly less than one year, so 323.8 star dates between them seem like enough.

    And there could be 11,067.5 stardates instead of of only 1,067.5 between Star Trek V: The Final Frontier at 8454.1 and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country at 9521.6.

    So the total number of stardates between "All Our Yesterdays" at 5943.7 and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country at 9521.6 could be tween 3,577.9 and 33,577.9. Assuming that there are two to four stardates per Earth day, there could be 2.448 to 4.897 years in 3.577.9 stardates and 22.982 to 45.965 years in 33,577.9 stardates.

    Although it is hard to be certain, there seems to be a condition of peace between the Federation and the Klingons in most or all of the TOS movies.

    But Starfleet seems highly militarized in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and its sequels. Therefore, one could surmise that there was about a decade of war with the Klingons between Star Trek: The Motion Picture and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, followed by a year or two of peace that included the era of the movies from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan to Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, followed by another long war with the Klingons beginning soon after Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and continuing to shortly before Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country when another period of peace began. But that period of peace would have been a short one if Praxis had not exploded, because the Klingons were still committed to conquering the Federation.

    And we can imagine that Kirk was a great tactician and strategist in those hypothetical long and bloody Klingon wars.

    And to finally get to the point of answering the comment, possibly the Klingons would have defeated the Federation in the second of those wars if Ambasador Nunclus had not negotiated an alliance between the Federation and the Romulans and brought a lot of Romulan military help to defeat the Klingons,thus preventing the Klingosn from possibly becoming powerful enough to to conquer theRomulans. Thus Nunclus would have been highly respected and influential, and it would be more likely for the President of the Federation to invite Nunclus to a meeting discussing top secret rescue operations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  15. The HorrOrville

    The HorrOrville Admiral Admiral

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    That is the saving grace of the episode. Every joke of Shatner's acting can likely be connected to this episode and when he throws a fit as Garth wanting to be beamed aboard the Enterprise.

    Jason
     
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  16. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I believe that the Klingons although legally at peace with the Federation during the events of the films, were actually planning a war with Starfleet and may have been indoctrinating their young to hate the Federation and could see a time not so far off that they would be at each others throats again so the T'Ong was launched say before the events of The Wrath of Khan! :klingon:
    JB
     
  17. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Actually, wrong. He was the first effected by it, but he was the last one to collapse.
     
  18. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    CLEANING WOMAN?!?!?
     
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  19. JesterFace

    JesterFace Commodore Commodore

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    If you dislike an episode of TOS, it doesn't really matter because every episode of that series is legendary. :)
     
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  20. TLOZ Lover

    TLOZ Lover Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It's sad that so many people dislike The Lights of Zetar. There are many episodes I dearly love, but watching Scotty and Mira fall in love has been my special favorite from the first time I saw it. True, there are a number of technical flaws in the writing of the story, but it's far from being the worst in TOS. Hope you will visit my blog! :)
     
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