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Same canon?

I don't have an interest in any particular "theory," since you can make the vague time-travel events of the story mean whatever you like. I've seen people try to "prove" that Spock Prime isn't the same guy who was in all those TOS episodes, which is about as moronic a notion as anyone could cook up - there's no evidence in the story or anything said about the story to support it, but if someone's determined to insist upon it you can no more stop them then you can convince a scientologist. :lol:
 
Who cares if it is speculation? What is your point?

What was yours?

I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that a good majority of the people who saw the movie didn't do so because it was an alternate timeline.
Most people did because it was a reboot and they didn't beholden it to Trek of before. Simple.

JJ Abrams' fresh take, young and attractive cast, top notch effects, the name brand Star Trek, and word of mouth.

It doesn't matter if it's speculation because it's more than likely true until you offer any kind of insightful counterpoint
Done.

Next?

===

Would be easily solved by putting a model of the original TOS Enterprise in Kirk's or Pike's or Scotty's quarters/desk/whatever.

You didn't think this through.

It already could have been easily solved in the last movie by Nero's ship computer trying to identify the ship class and showing the TOS Constitution class as closest match.

Unfortunately, there was not one visual hint in that movie that it was indeed the same universe before Nero's intervention,

Ambassador Spock.

You kids have anymore for me to debunk tonight?
 
It already could have been easily solved in the last movie by Nero's ship computer trying to identify the ship class and showing the TOS Constitution class as closest match.

Unfortunately, there was not one visual hint in that movie that it was indeed the same universe before Nero's intervention,

Ambassador Spock.

You kids have anymore for me to debunk tonight?

Spock is an ambassador in the Prime universe. Spock is an ambassador in the Original Canon universe. Therefore they must be the selfsame universe. Looks iron-clad to me.
 
In my mind, the "reboot" is just J.J. Abrams' fanfiction of TOS Trek. I did not like the movie at all, personally, for many reasons which have already been enumerated earlier. In fact, I'm going to be presumptuous enough to call it canon rape. -_- I have trouble talking about this movie without being extremely bitter, obviously.

There were several things I liked about the movie, including the acting (most of the actors had fairly mad skills...although Chris Pine- with his ridiculously neanderthal brow- left a lot to be desired).
 
Would be easily solved by putting a model of the original TOS Enterprise in Kirk's or Pike's or Scotty's quarters/desk/whatever.

You didn't think this through.

Oh yes, I did. Nero's time travel apparently changed the design of the ship (says Orci). But since Scotty seemed to be an Enterprise or Constitution class fan (Scotty implies that in the movie), it would very well make sense that he also built a model of one of the original designs (says I). Makes at least as much or even more sense as taking Delta Vega and putting it somewhere it doesn't belong "as a homage to the original series".

Ambassador Spock.

You kids have anymore for me to debunk tonight?
Maybe you can explain how Ambassador Spock from the future proves that the Kelvin we saw in that movie belonged to his past. I say since the Stardates given by both Robau and the Jellyfish's computer are different to the TOS-VOY Stardates, they are evidence that neither the Kelvin nor Old Spock are from the TOS-VOY universe.


With QM, there is no time travel with predestination paradoxes. Yet there have been plenty of those in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT. I agree with Dennis that the universes don't have a shared past. The Kelvin might be from a universe in which the Borg and the Enterprise-E never appeared in 2063, and where Kirk never went to 1986 to get two humpack whales, and Scotty never gave the formula for transparent aluminium to PlexiCorp, and Mark Twain never saw the bridge of the Enterprise-D, and Data's head was never lost in these caves.


Until proven otherwise, I say that [the universes] don't [have a shared past] - that's not how Orci described the situation in his discussions of quantum mechanics, after all.

If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening. And that the most probable events tend to happen more often and that one of the subsets of that theory is the many universe theory. Data said this [in "Parallels"], he summed up quantum mechanics as the theory that "all possibilities that can happen do happen" in a parallel universe. According to theory, there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way. This is not something we are making up; this is something we researched, in terms of the physical theory.

So anything and everything can be different both before and after Nero's incursion, and doubtless much will be - there are folks arguing now, after all, that the Kelvin would not have existed as it did in the TOS universe. Maybe it exists as it did because Cochrane was influenced by neither a Borg attack nor Picard's people.
 
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Who cares if it is speculation? What is your point?

What was yours?

My point was fairly clear given how much I articulated it and that I didn't resort to meta one-liners. That point was that the details did not matter. Whether it was a full reboot, a reimagining, a true prequel, or something else, it wouldn't have mattered. Visually and production-wise the movie would have been different enough from prior Star Trek to entice the masses. Having the JJ Abrams name attached did the movie wonders, and the nerdy details about what kind of universe it is means squat to the masses.
 
The stardates are a retcon. Once meaningless numbers can now be decoded by Trekkies - and people complain!

Also STXI is hardly the first Star Trek to feature a method of time-tampering incompatible with all the other times - just what the hell was going on when TOS beamed Captain Christopher "into" himself? What about TNG "Parallels"? Those alternates split off from the prime (and by "prime", I only mean the one we follow for TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT, none of which are the original/unmodified timeline) timeline, some as recently as "Best of Both Worlds" - we even saw a diagram. What about that time Spock, trapped 5000 years in the past, "de-evolves" into a pre-Surak Vulcan? What about Voyager swapping Harry's between universes (which they were attempting to merge, somehow!).

All the above feature differing principles of time-travel and alternate universes, yet all are part of the same canon. For each episode they retconned time-travel to work a certain (sometimes nonsensical) way. STXI is no different.
 
Nero's time travel apparently changed the design of the ship (says Orci). But since Scotty seemed to be an Enterprise or Constitution class fan (Scotty implies that in the movie), it would very well make sense that he also built a model of one of the original designs (says I). Makes at least as much or even more sense as taking Delta Vega and putting it somewhere it doesn't belong "as a homage to the original series".

Er...no...Scotty would have a model of the changed design, since it was presumably designed after Nero's incursion. He could only have a model of the original design if it was designed prior to Nero's incursion.

As for Delta Vega...hi, my name is John Smith. Have we met?
 
Nero's time travel apparently changed the design of the ship (says Orci). But since Scotty seemed to be an Enterprise or Constitution class fan (Scotty implies that in the movie), it would very well make sense that he also built a model of one of the original designs (says I). Makes at least as much or even more sense as taking Delta Vega and putting it somewhere it doesn't belong "as a homage to the original series".

Er...no...Scotty would have a model of the changed design, since it was presumably designed after Nero's incursion. He could only have a model of the original design if it was designed prior to Nero's incursion.

Umm...yeah...The original Constitution class may have been on the drawing board prior to Nero's incursion. Remember, the Enterprise was supposed to have been launched in 2245 in the original Trek universe (yeah, I know, not "canon" but universally accepted). Who knows how long it takes a starship to go from plans to production. Decades? Prototypes and/or scale models may have been built. The original design may have been shelved after Nero in order to be re-thought and redesigned into the aesthetic catastrophe it became in the movie. Scotty may have been a fan of classic starship design in his youth and built models of the pre-production Constitution class which may heve resembled our classic TOS Enterprise a little more than the crappyprise does. It would be no different from an automotive engineer building models of classic cars and displaying them on his desk at work. I'm not an engineer, but I have a model of a 1968 Shelby GT-500 Mustang on my desk at work even though this is 2010 and by your logic, I should have a 2010 GT-500 model. Anything is possible.

As for Delta Vega...hi, my name is John Smith. Have we met?

:confused:

Please don't get me started on Delta Vega.:lol:
 
The NX-01 was something like 30 years in the design phase.
On the other hand, Voyager designed and built the Delta Flyer, from scratch, in a couple of days. Deep Space Nine's Defiant was designed and built between "The Best of Both Worlds" and Sisko's assignment to DS9 in "The Emissary", only a couple of years (yes, I alteady know some fans like to pretend otherwise with conveluted reasoning based on Voyager's reverse-continuity).

And who would make a model, in-universe, of an unmade starship design?
 
The stardates are a retcon. Once meaningless numbers can now be decoded by Trekkies - and people complain!

Stardates are probably one of the dumbest things about Star Trek. Mostly because it always ended up being that 1000 numbers was an Earth year anyways in the next gen series. So why not just use the standard Gregorian Calendar? Now with this movie, they've made the numbers even more apparent to be equivalent to our years. So why even use it? One thing I liked about Enterprise was how they still used our calendar and didn't attempt the BS. It is best to pay no mind to stardates.
 
The NX-01 was something like 30 years in the design phase.
On the other hand, Voyager designed and built the Delta Flyer, from scratch, in a couple of days. Deep Space Nine's Defiant was designed and built between "The Best of Both Worlds" and Sisko's assignment to DS9 in "The Emissary", only a couple of years (yes, I alteady know some fans like to pretend otherwise with conveluted reasoning based on Voyager's reverse-continuity).

And who would make a model, in-universe, of an unmade starship design?

What I wonder the most is WHY do you bring up more and more criticism against that idea? If they do it in the second movie and have a model of it somewhere, would you really dislike that?

And then, in-universe, who would make salt shakers in the form of space ships? Do we have aircraft carrier or space shuttle salt shakers?


All the above feature differing principles of time-travel and alternate universes, yet all are part of the same canon. For each episode they retconned time-travel to work a certain (sometimes nonsensical) way. STXI is no different.

But they never made the mistake to specifically exclude all of the other principles, which is what Orci did. The reason why Spock doesn't slingshot around the sun to save billions is because it doesn't work. And that retcons First Contact, Time's Arrow, Yesterday's Enterprise, etc... into having never taken place.
 
The stardates are a retcon. Once meaningless numbers can now be decoded by Trekkies - and people complain!

Stardates are probably one of the dumbest things about Star Trek. Mostly because it always ended up being that 1000 numbers was an Earth year anyways in the next gen series. So why not just use the standard Gregorian Calendar? Now with this movie, they've made the numbers even more apparent to be equivalent to our years. So why even use it? One thing I liked about Enterprise was how they still used our calendar and didn't attempt the BS. It is best to pay no mind to stardates.

We all know that things like Stardates evolve as much as they are created.

- Originally to keep exact dates "vague" to leave room for creativity down the line.
- When TNG came into things, 24th Century Stardates were made to make slightly more sense by using 4 then the season number, then random 3 digits slowly incrementing, then dot something random to give a vague impression of the passage of time.
- Trek 2009 came about, and they had the TOS style 4 digit Stardates, so they came up with a simple system that made sense.

I guess its a kind of balance that has to be maintained between making sense and respecting the past.
 
And who would make a model, in-universe, of an unmade starship design?


I don't know. I have a model of the 1956 Lincoln Futura. It was only built as a show car and later bacame the Batmobile. It was never "made" as far as production. Yet I have a model of it.
 
All the incompatible time-travels in prior Treks excluded all the other methods by their incompatibility. Just because the STXI writers expained their reasoning online doesn't make it any less more or valid than the reasoning the prior writers would have had.

There's a huge difference between the current writers not using (and saying they're not going to use) an idea like slingshotting around a sun, and it "never having existed in that universe". DS9 and Voyager didn't use that technique when they went back, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Heck, Voyager could have ended "Future's End" in the Earth solar system, in the 24th century, if they'd used it!
 
The stardates are a retcon. Once meaningless numbers can now be decoded by Trekkies - and people complain!

Stardates are probably one of the dumbest things about Star Trek. Mostly because it always ended up being that 1000 numbers was an Earth year anyways in the next gen series. So why not just use the standard Gregorian Calendar? Now with this movie, they've made the numbers even more apparent to be equivalent to our years. So why even use it? One thing I liked about Enterprise was how they still used our calendar and didn't attempt the BS. It is best to pay no mind to stardates.

We all know that things like Stardates evolve as much as they are created.

- Originally to keep exact dates "vague" to leave room for creativity down the line.
- When TNG came into things, 24th Century Stardates were made to make slightly more sense by using 4 then the season number, then random 3 digits slowly incrementing, then dot something random to give a vague impression of the passage of time.
- Trek 2009 came about, and they had the TOS style 4 digit Stardates, so they came up with a simple system that made sense.

I guess its a kind of balance that has to be maintained between making sense and respecting the past.

It also makes sense that we don't understand a Stardate today that looks like a random number, because it's an universal date that can be shared by 100+ alien civilizations, compensates for faster than light travel, etc... What doesn't make ANY sense is to base it on the Gregorian Calendar. Not every planet has 24 hours days, and doesn't take 365 Earth days to orbit around their sun. And certainly not everyone had some mythical figure born 2000 years ago.

Idealistically, if you found something big like the Federation, you'd need to settle for a universal measuring system. And that system would be defined by universal constants like a pulsar frequency, atomic mass, etc... Vulcans, Andorians, etc... have no idea how long feet or meters are, since they have their own ways of measuring distances. Even a lightyear would have to be redefined, because... what the hell is a year? Is it the Earth year or is it the 100+ years of 100+ different civilizations?

And since Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, etc... were space faring civilizations LONG before Earth turned up on the map, it makes no sense that they'd all bow down and use to the metric system and the Gregorian Calendar. It's Star Trek, it's idealistic, they'd sit down and create a new system that can be shared by everyone.


If you retcon something, then at least please retcon it with some thought put into it. Too bad they cancelled Enterprise, they could have mentioned all that stuff in those three missing seasons.
 
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Stardates are probably one of the dumbest things about Star Trek. Mostly because it always ended up being that 1000 numbers was an Earth year anyways in the next gen series. So why not just use the standard Gregorian Calendar? Now with this movie, they've made the numbers even more apparent to be equivalent to our years. So why even use it? One thing I liked about Enterprise was how they still used our calendar and didn't attempt the BS. It is best to pay no mind to stardates.

We all know that things like Stardates evolve as much as they are created.

- Originally to keep exact dates "vague" to leave room for creativity down the line.
- When TNG came into things, 24th Century Stardates were made to make slightly more sense by using 4 then the season number, then random 3 digits slowly incrementing, then dot something random to give a vague impression of the passage of time.
- Trek 2009 came about, and they had the TOS style 4 digit Stardates, so they came up with a simple system that made sense.

I guess its a kind of balance that has to be maintained between making sense and respecting the past.

It also makes sense that we don't understand a Stardate today that looks like a random number, because it's an universal date that can be shared by 100+ alien civilizations, compensates for faster than light travel, etc... What doesn't make ANY sense is to base it on the Gregorian Calendar. Not every planet has 24 hours days, and doesn't take 365 Earth days to orbit around their sun. And certainly not everyone had some mythical figure born 2000 years ago.

Idealistically, if you found something big like the Federation, you'd need to settle for a universal measuring system. And that system would be defined by universal constants like a pulsar frequency, atomic mass, etc... Vulcans, Andorians, etc... have no idea how long feet or meters are, since they have their own ways of measuring distances. Even a lightyear would have to be redefined, because... what the hell is a year? Is it the Earth year or is it the 100+ years of 100+ different civilizations?

And since Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, etc... were space faring civilizations LONG before Earth turned up on the map, it makes no sense that they'd all bow down and use to the metric system and the Gregorian Calendar. It's Star Trek, it's idealistic, they'd sit down and create a new system that can be shared by everyone.


If you retcon something, then at least please retcon it with some thought put into it. Too bad they cancelled Enterprise, they could have mentioned all that stuff in those three missing seasons.

Truth be told, because it is an Alternate Reality, I don't think it's a Retcon.

- Enterprise used Gregorian Dates.
- 2233, this evolved into the Stardate "format", and standardized for Federation ships.
- By 2266 (Prime Realiity, TOS), they found the use of a Pulsar/universal method you refer to.
- In the Alternate Reality, this evolutionary step was simply never taken.

The only problem would be when Spock asks Spock Prime's Jellyfish when it was built: "Stardate 2387, commissioned by the Vulcan Science Academy", but beyond that, in-universe, it works.

Again, the writers had to find a balance between understandability for non-fans, and staying true to the Original Series.
 
In my mind, the "reboot" is just J.J. Abrams' fanfiction of TOS Trek. I did not like the movie at all, personally, for many reasons which have already been enumerated earlier. In fact, I'm going to be presumptuous enough to call it canon rape. -_- I have trouble talking about this movie without being extremely bitter, obviously.

There were several things I liked about the movie, including the acting (most of the actors had fairly mad skills...although Chris Pine- with his ridiculously neanderthal brow- left a lot to be desired).
Fanfic???? Really? Canon rape??? Again really? Or are you just pulling our legs? Both terms have actual meanings. Neither of which is evident in ST09.
 
Spock is an ambassador in the Prime universe. Spock is an ambassador in the Original Canon universe. Therefore they must be the selfsame universe.

Yes. To presume otherwise is grasping at straws at its best and is, as pointed out earlier, completely moronic.
 
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