Same canon?

[Devon]

Oh yes, I did.

No you didn't, here's why:

Nero's time travel apparently changed the design of the ship (says Orci). But since Scotty seemed to be an Enterprise or Constitution class fan (Scotty implies that in the movie), it would very well make sense that he also built a model of one of the original designs (says I).

Right, says you. You're assuming that the original Enterprise was designed before 2233. Scotty didn't express interest in the old one. Also, having an original Enterprise design model wouldn't mean it was from the same universe, since we know from past Treks that different universes can render the same ship design (Parallels and the such.) So then what?

Makes at least as much or even more sense as taking Delta Vega and putting it somewhere it doesn't belong "as a homage to the original series".

No it doesn't.

Maybe you can explain how Ambassador Spock from the future proves that the Kelvin we saw in that movie belonged to his past.

Why not?

I say since the Stardates given by both Robau and the Jellyfish's computer are different to the TOS-VOY Stardates, they are evidence that neither the Kelvin nor Old Spock are from the TOS-VOY universe.

If you're going to start going that route, then early TOS isn't in the same universe as Voyager because of the different warp factors and speeds. And the second or third season of Voyager isn't the same universe as the first or second season because of the different equipment used that somehow transported its way there across tens of thousands of light years. Oh my, the humanity!

 

[Captrek]

The only problem would be when Spock asks Spock Prime's Jellyfish when it was built: "Stardate 2387, commissioned by the Vulcan Science Academy", but beyond that, in-universe, it works.

The Jellyfish was built on Stardate 2387 in TOS-style stardates, which is some time between The Squire of Gothos and What Are Little Girls Made Of? Romulus was destroyed because Spock Prime was too cheap to spring for a modern ship. No wonder Nero’s so pissed at him.

 

[Captrek]

Spock is an ambassador in the Prime universe. Spock is an ambassador in the Original Canon universe. Therefore they must be the selfsame universe.

Yes. To presume otherwise is grasping at straws at its best and is, as pointed out earlier, completely moronic.

I’m not presuming they are two distinct universes, I’m concluding that they must be two distinct universes, based on your own demonstration of differences between them.

Reasonable positions include:

1. They are the selfsame universe. Any differences are either explainable or are reasonable retcons.
   
2. They are two similar but distinct universes.
   
3. They are the selfsame universe, but have differences that cannot be explained and are not reasonable retcons. The new film is therefore “wrong.”

You choose the only one of those positions that “breaks” the movie and maintain that to do otherwise is completely moronic. I am unconvinced.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Personally I lean towards the "distinct universe" theory myself, with the caveat that some of the differences should also be considered retcons for the sake of plot consistency.

 

[T'Girl]

Then again, Star Trek Enterprise's time travel was utterly and totally meaningless in every way imaginable (try to logic out the events of the Nazi episodes - the guy about to start the time war somehow is doing it from the fucked-up-Nazi-filled-past that results from the war that hasn't begun yet. Without the circumstances of this borked timeline he wouldn't have begun the war in the first place ) so I guess anything can happen.

If you manage to figure that one out, try going to work on Yesteryear. I don’t know if it’s possible to explain it with a coherent time-travel process, but it’s a good story.

The makers of Star Trek Online also think the timelines have a shared past:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5032/stotimeline.jpg

[Oversize image converted to link. Please refer to TrekBBS image-posting guidelines. - M']

Well according to Yesteryear, the Nazi's of course won the Second World War.

At different times Spock traveled through the Guardian into the past. Spock couldn't simultaneously be in more than one past at the same time, so by being in Orion's past Spock couldn't be in Vulcan's past and prevent young Spock's death. Therefor when Kirk went into Orions past he could be in Earth's past and didn't prevent Edith Keeler's death.

15 years before Keeler was saved by McCoy on the street in 1930, a temporal agent from the 29th century assassinates Vladimir Lenin which prevented the overthrowing of the Czar of Russia. In the late 1930's Keeler started a pacifist movement that delayed America's entry into the Second War War. In 1944 Germany possesses nuclear weapons, has the assistance of Vosk's advanced technologies and has invaded America.

By the time Archer and the Enterprise arrive from the 22nd century it's to late to save America although they do defeat Vosk.

.............
The timeline isn't really that complex.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9974/tubemap.gif

[Oversize image converted to link. Please refer to TrekBBS image-posting guidelines. - M']

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well according to Yesteryear, the Nazi's of course won the Second World War.

City On the Edge of Forever.

 

[JarodRussell]

Right, says you. You're assuming that the original Enterprise was designed before 2233. Scotty didn't express interest in the old one.

Right, I forgot. What you say is right, what I say is wrong.

Also, having an original Enterprise design model wouldn't mean it was from the same universe, since we know from past Treks that different universes can render the same ship design (Parallels and the such.) So then what?

This is funny, because you don't even realize what you are doing here. NOW you argue that it isn't proving that it was the same timeline. But EVERY TIME I try to argue that it isn't the same timeline, you argue against that. And if they HAD put the TOS Enterprise in there and I HAD argued "No, that doesn't prove that it is the same timeline", you would be one of the first to argue against that! You always argue against something, no matter what. Why?

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does! Explain to me how it makes less sense!

Maybe you can explain how Ambassador Spock from the future proves that the Kelvin we saw in that movie belonged to his past.

Why not?

Oh, and now you don't even try to prove it, you just return the question.



And I ask you, Devon: would you really be upset if they put a model of the original TOS Constitution somewhere in the next movie? No, you wouldn't be. You wouldn't even try to argue that they didn't think this through. So why are you doing it now?

 

[Dukhat]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Scotty had any kind of fascination with the TOS version of the Constitution class. As a matter of fact, the words "Constitution class" were never even mentioned in the film. Scotty liked the new Enterprise only, and that was after he came aboard it. I don't know where this idea is coming from. Is there some scene in the movie that I missed that gives this assumption?

The Constitution class in its TOS form simply doesn't exist in this universe, so there'd be no reason to have a "model" of it sitting around in the background, except for fanwank purposes.

As for the Kelvin, she was a Prime universe ship. Period. And not only that, she's shown in the BD extras that she's actually an old ship in 2233 (which, not coincidentally, is the same year as Kirk's birth in the Star Trek Chronology, showing that Abrams, etc. did in fact do their homework), so she could have been built much earlier than when Nero arrives.

Here's how I see it:

Prime universe: 2233: the Kelvin returns to Earth sometime after scanning the star near the Klingon border. George and pregnant Winona Kirk return to Iowa, where baby Kirk is born. Meanwhile, Starfleet begins R&D on the next generation of starships, resulting in the prototype U.S.S. Constitution sometime before 2245, when the TOS Enterprise is built.

Alternate universe: 2233: Kelvin is destroyed. Kirk is born prematurely. Starfleet gets intel from Kelvin survivors about the Narada, uses this info to reverse engineer new technology and create a new type of ship, to which the new Enterprise belongs. Any plans for the TOS Connie from the Prime universe are eliminated, if there were even any plans before 2233, which there probably weren't.

 

[DonIago]

Aside from Scotty's "ample nacelles" line indicating an interest in the ship (but not necessarily a strong degree of interest) I pretty much agree with everything you just said.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Scotty liked the new Enterprise only, and that was after he came aboard it. I don't know where this idea is coming from. Is there some scene in the movie that I missed that gives this assumption?

Scotty said he couldn't wait to get his hands on her "ample nacelles" while still on Delta Vega. That shows he was at least familiar with the ship. When he said he liked the ship, after he arrived aboard, he was commenting on how exciting it was.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Dukhat is right, aside from Scotty's fascination.

Of course, prior to 2233, they were the same usiverse.

One key piece of evidence for this is the fact that Spock came from 2387 as an Ambassador, from the post-Nemesis era (Prime Reality), and yet he was surprised when things changed from his memory of events when he met Kirk on Delta Vega, and Vulcan was destroyed (Signifying an Alternate Reality).

I alsus submit that Spock Prime speaks of inferring a falsehood to Kirk "This is one rule you cannot break" when speaking to Quinto's Spock, implying that they both are well aware of how the time travel/alternate reality worked, and that there was no paradox involved.

 

[T'Girl]

Well according to Yesteryear, the Nazi's of course won the Second World War.

City On the Edge of Forever.

Nope, I meant Yesteryear, can't be in more than one past at the same time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well according to Yesteryear, the Nazi's of course won the Second World War.

City On the Edge of Forever.

Nope, I meant Yesteryear, can't be in more than one past at the same time.

The animated episode shows the Nazi winning WWII?

 

[M'Sharak]

City On the Edge of Forever.

Nope, I meant Yesteryear, can't be in more than one past at the same time.

The animated episode shows the Nazi winning WWII?

Since the majority of "Yesteryear" took place on Vulcan during the late 2230s, that seems unlikely.

 

[Captrek]

Nope, I meant Yesteryear, can't be in more than one past at the same time.

The animated episode shows the Nazi winning WWII?

Since the majority of "Yesteryear" took place on Vulcan during the late 2230s, that seems unlikely.

I think T’Girl is saying that Kirk and Spock’s trip through the Guardian to Orion’s past somehow undid their trip through the Guardian to 1930 Earth just as it undid Spock’s trip to Vulcan’s past. However, IIRC, it is stated in Yesteryear that Spock’s trip to Vulcan’s past was undone because other people were using the Guardian to look at Vulcan’s past while Spock was visiting Orion’s past. Unless they were also looking at 1930 Earth, it shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[Devon]

Right, says you. You're assuming that the original Enterprise was designed before 2233. Scotty didn't express interest in the old one.

Right, I forgot. What you say is right, what I say is wrong.

I didn't say that. I said you're assuming.

Also, having an original Enterprise design model wouldn't mean it was from the same universe, since we know from past Treks that different universes can render the same ship design (Parallels and the such.) So then what?

This is funny, because you don't even realize what you are doing here.[/quote]

Yes I do, I'm replying to you.

NOW you argue that it isn't proving that it was the same timeline. But EVERY TIME I try to argue that it isn't the same timeline, you argue against that. And if they HAD put the TOS Enterprise in there and I HAD argued "No, that doesn't prove that it is the same timeline", you would be one of the first to argue against that! You always argue against something, no matter what. Why?

You're head is spinning.

 

[JarodRussell]

As expected, you ignored the actual question.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

The only problem would be when Spock asks Spock Prime's Jellyfish when it was built: "Stardate 2387, commissioned by the Vulcan Science Academy", but beyond that, in-universe, it works.

The Jellyfish was built on Stardate 2387 in TOS-style stardates, which is some time between The Squire of Gothos and What Are Little Girls Made Of? Romulus was destroyed because Spock Prime was too cheap to spring for a modern ship. No wonder Nero’s so pissed at him.

Awesome!

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Spock is an ambassador in the Prime universe. Spock is an ambassador in the Original Canon universe. Therefore they must be the selfsame universe.

Yes. To presume otherwise is grasping at straws at its best and is, as pointed out earlier, completely moronic.

I’m not presuming they are two distinct universes, I’m concluding that they must be two distinct universes, based on your own demonstration of differences between them.


Reasonable positions include:

1. They are the selfsame universe. Any differences are either explainable or are reasonable retcons.
   
2. They are two similar but distinct universes.
   
3. They are the selfsame universe, but have differences that cannot be explained and are not reasonable retcons. The new film is therefore “wrong.”

You choose the only one of those positions that “breaks” the movie and maintain that to do otherwise is completely moronic. I am unconvinced.

Or of course the 4th option, as proposed by the writers:

4. They are separate Universes as of 2233.04, but prior to that event, are the self-same universe.

The past is shared, but Nero's arrival, in accordance with MWI, split reality into two separate universes: One where Nero did not arrive in 2233.04 (aka Prime), the other Alternate Reality, with subsequent changes reflecting the Narada's arrival, and all changes observed are as a result of this event.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

The only problem would be when Spock asks Spock Prime's Jellyfish when it was built: "Stardate 2387, commissioned by the Vulcan Science Academy", but beyond that, in-universe, it works.

The Jellyfish was built on Stardate 2387 in TOS-style stardates, which is some time between The Squire of Gothos and What Are Little Girls Made Of? Romulus was destroyed because Spock Prime was too cheap to spring for a modern ship. No wonder Nero’s so pissed at him.

Awesome!

Pretty funny.