Same canon?

[I-Am-Zim]

Spock is an ambassador in the Prime universe. Spock is an ambassador in the Original Canon universe. Therefore they must be the selfsame universe.

Yes. To presume otherwise is grasping at straws at its best and is, as pointed out earlier, completely moronic.

I’m not presuming they are two distinct universes, I’m concluding that they must be two distinct universes, based on your own demonstration of differences between them.


Reasonable positions include:

1. They are the selfsame universe. Any differences are either explainable or are reasonable retcons.
   
2. They are two similar but distinct universes.
   
3. They are the selfsame universe, but have differences that cannot be explained and are not reasonable retcons. The new film is therefore “wrong.”

You choose the only one of those positions that “breaks” the movie and maintain that to do otherwise is completely moronic. I am unconvinced.

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

 

[Captrek]

Yes. To presume otherwise is grasping at straws at its best and is, as pointed out earlier, completely moronic.

I’m not presuming they are two distinct universes, I’m concluding that they must be two distinct universes, based on your own demonstration of differences between them.


Reasonable positions include:

1. They are the selfsame universe. Any differences are either explainable or are reasonable retcons.
   
2. They are two similar but distinct universes.
   
3. They are the selfsame universe, but have differences that cannot be explained and are not reasonable retcons. The new film is therefore “wrong.”

You choose the only one of those positions that “breaks” the movie and maintain that to do otherwise is completely moronic. I am unconvinced.

Or of course the 4th option, as proposed by the writers:

4. They are separate Universes as of 2233.04, but prior to that event, are the self-same universe.

The past is shared, but Nero's arrival, in accordance with MWI, split reality into two separate universes: One where Nero did not arrive in 2233.04 (aka Prime), the other Alternate Reality, with subsequent changes reflecting the Narada's arrival, and all changes observed are as a result of this event.

You misunderstand, 1BF. We’re not talking about the Prime universe and the new timeline. We’re talking about the Prime universe and the original canon.

They appear to be the same universe, and you can assume that they are if you’re comfortable with that. If you believe there are inconsistencies between that cannot be resolved, then simply accept that they are not the same reality. This is a reboot, not a sequel, so it doesn’t have to be connected to the original canon at all.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I’m not presuming they are two distinct universes, I’m concluding that they must be two distinct universes, based on your own demonstration of differences between them.



Reasonable positions include:

1. They are the selfsame universe. Any differences are either explainable or are reasonable retcons.
   
2. They are two similar but distinct universes.
   
3. They are the selfsame universe, but have differences that cannot be explained and are not reasonable retcons. The new film is therefore “wrong.”

You choose the only one of those positions that “breaks” the movie and maintain that to do otherwise is completely moronic. I am unconvinced.

Or of course the 4th option, as proposed by the writers:

4. They are separate Universes as of 2233.04, but prior to that event, are the self-same universe.

The past is shared, but Nero's arrival, in accordance with MWI, split reality into two separate universes: One where Nero did not arrive in 2233.04 (aka Prime), the other Alternate Reality, with subsequent changes reflecting the Narada's arrival, and all changes observed are as a result of this event.

You misunderstand. We’re not talking about the Prime universe and the new reality. We’re talking about the Prime universe and the original canon.

They appear to be the same universe, and you can assume that they are if you’re comfortable with that. If you believe there are inconsistencies between that cannot be resolved, then simply accept that they are not the same reality. This is a reboot, not a sequel, so it doesn’t have to be connected to the original canon at all.

The Alternate Reality scenario, leonard Nimoy etc. tell me that this is not a reboot. It's mere existence as presented is meant to serve that precise purpose.

- Sequel to Nemesis (loosely, Romulan angle)
- Prequel to TOS (in spirit, though in an Alternate Reality)
- Spock coming from the old Canon (Prime Reality, TOS thru NEM) into new, along with Nero.
- Prior to 2233.04, Enterprise happened, Trek IV happened etc.

 

[Dukhat]

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

Bingo

I think Zim has brought this up before, but I can't remember the thread.

Seems like a nice guy, but he's as stubborn and oppinionated as I am when it comes to these issues

 

[Devon]

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

Bingo

I think Zim has brought this up before, but I can't remember the thread.

Probably, and it was probably proven wrong then as well.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

In all honesty, I dont know why people think that the Federation has only one set design standard. Real-life has shown that a navy has many different types and styles.

Let's take the US Navy and the Ticonderoga Class CG as the basis. The Perry class FFGs are not small versions of the Ticonderoga, the Nimitz Class is not a flight deck placed on top of a enlarged Ticonderoga, the Lewis and Clark Class supply ships are not Ticonderogas with extra space on them.

So it is a safe assumption not all the vessels in Starfleet look like the Constitution Class contrary to what Franz Joseph thinks. Hell, even in 24th Century Starfleet, the various starships are different with different hull styles. We got Galaxy to Sovereign to Intrepid to Defiant. Yes they all have a nacelle, deflector dish, impulse engines, and a bridge, but that doesnt make them have all the same hull.

 

[Captrek]

In all honesty, I dont know why people think that the Federation has only one set design standard. Real-life has shown that a navy has many different types and styles.

Let's take the US Navy and the Ticonderoga Class CG as the basis. The Perry class FFGs are not small versions of the Ticonderoga, the Nimitz Class is not a flight deck placed on top of a enlarged Ticonderoga, the Lewis and Clark Class supply ships are not Ticonderogas with extra space on them.

So it is a safe assumption not all the vessels in Starfleet look like the Constitution Class contrary to what Franz Joseph thinks. Hell, even in 24th Century Starfleet, the various starships are different with different hull styles. We got Galaxy to Sovereign to Intrepid to Defiant. Yes they all have a nacelle, deflector dish, impulse engines, and a bridge, but that doesnt make them have all the same hull.

True. The only reason they all looked the same in TOS is that they were working with a limited budget so they didn’t make any more models than necessary. When TNG and DS9 came along with much higher budgets, they found every excuse they could to put another ship model on the screen to make the fans go, “Wow, k00L!!1!”

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

I still tend to lean toward the separate universe theory. Especially considering all the inconsistencies that can't be explained away. That won't change.

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

Bingo

I think Zim has brought this up before, but I can't remember the thread.

Seems like a nice guy, but he's as stubborn and oppinionated as I am when it comes to these issues

Indeed. We are of a kind...so to speak.

But I actually didn't originate the separate universe theory. Someone else did and I agreed with it.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

Bingo

I think Zim has brought this up before, but I can't remember the thread.

Probably, and it was probably proven wrong then as well.

Nope. It was never proven wrong. Nor were you ever proven right. The only thing that was proven was that our opinions and interpretations differ.

 

[Dukhat]

I tend to lean toward the second choice. Mostly due to differences between the TOS universe and Kelvin-era that are difficult or impossible to explain away.

That's funny, because until this movie came out, no one had ever seen the era of the 2230's, so no one knew what it's supposed to look like. No one ever said it was supposed to look like the 2260's of TOS. So your point is moot.

I still tend to lean toward the separate universe theory. Especially considering all the inconsistencies that can't be explained away. That won't change.



Indeed. We are of a kind...so to speak.

But I actually didn't originate the separate universe theory. Someone else did and I agreed with it.

Bingo

I think Zim has brought this up before, but I can't remember the thread.

Probably, and it was probably proven wrong then as well.

Nope. It was never proven wrong. Nor were you ever proven right. The only thing that was proven was that our opinions and interpretations differ.

If you want to think it's a different universe, no one's stopping you or, like, the six other people out of hundreds on this BBS that think this. If you want to believe God is a toaster, no one's going to convince you otherwise if that's how you feel. But no matter how many times you continually post your feelings about this, it doesn't change the fact that the Kelvin era was specifically said to be the Prime universe, and that's also where Spock Prime came from. Whether it doesn't look right to you is irrelevant. Your opinion doesn't matter. And my opinion doesn't matter either. The 22nd century depicted in ENTERPRISE doesn't look right to me, but that's my personal opinion which is not shared by fans of the show or by Paramount; nor am I interested in getting into arguments with the fans for thinking the way I do. I just let it go. You should do the same.

Argue all you want. Reverse my words and throw them back to me all you want, like you always do. It won't make a bit of difference.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I've gotta say that I can't understand why someone would say STXI's prime universe isn't the same as TOS, and still believe that TMP, TWoK and ENT are.

TMP made just as many changes and retcons as STXI did - the Klingon one alone, totally changing their look and lifestyle is IMO far worse than a big spaceship with a glowing deflector. Vulcan's sky had to be "fixed" 30 years later to comply with the rest of Trek.

TWoK gave the Enterprise and Starfleet a massive low-tech and militaristic makeover, that Gene Rodenberry himself disliked.

Enterprise rewrote the Star Trek Chronology and invalidated: Picard's TNG line about Klingon first contact, Worf's line about phasers in the 22nd century, Romulan cloaking devices being new in 2260's, Spock's description of Romulan War-era tech, the existance of the Daedalus-class, every prior Enterprise count ever made.

But whatever works for you, I guess

 

[JarodRussell]

Enterprise rewrote the Star Trek Chronology and invalidated: Picard's TNG line about Klingon first contact, Worf's line about phasers in the 22nd century, Romulan cloaking devices being new in 2260's, Spock's description of Romulan War-era tech, the existance of the Daedalus-class, every prior Enterprise count ever made.

Guess why I pretend ENT never happened.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Enterprise rewrote the Star Trek Chronology and invalidated: Picard's TNG line about Klingon first contact, Worf's line about phasers in the 22nd century, Romulan cloaking devices being new in 2260's, Spock's description of Romulan War-era tech, the existance of the Daedalus-class, every prior Enterprise count ever made.

Guess why I pretend ENT never happened.

Seconded!

 

[Captrek]

I've gotta say that I can't understand why someone would say STXI's prime universe isn't the same as TOS, and still believe that TMP, TWoK and ENT are.

TMP, TWOK, and ENT are sequels/prequels, and they don’t work very effectively in that capacity if they don’t respect what has already been established about the story.

You can regard ST09 as a sequel if you wish, but you don’t have to. It’s essentially a reimagining. The primary intended audience is people who don’t have the kind of knowledge of Trek that would make them aware of these minor inconsistencies, and the creators clearly don’t want to be shackled by established canon. If you choose to imagine that the Prime universe is very similar to but not exactly the same universe as the original canon, that doesn’t make the film any less effective, IMO.

But whatever works for you, I guess

Exactly. I posted three possible interpretations and I think they’re all reasonable. Pick whichever you like, or pick one that I didn’t list. I recommend avoiding #3 if it angers you as it does Devon and Kathy Bates.

 

[Devon]

I recommend avoiding #3 if it angers you as it does Devon

Huh?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

My opinion about nuTrek canon is this... it is an alternate reality, recognizing the original but recognizing this is entirely different. Take young Spock's line that the destinies the crew might've had were disrupted by Nero's actions. That says the continuity many of us grew up with remains, but this new reality is a new continuity on its own. There are some aspects of the original canon that remain, but there are big changes to the universe.

1) Captain Pike ends up in a wheelchair in this universe, but he still can communicate verbally.

2) Jim gets to captain the Enterprise, but he is much younger than he was.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I recommend avoiding #3 if it angers you as it does Devon

I'm not angry at all - it's just Star Trek.

I think it's fair to point out that prior films and TV shows retconned things and updated the visuals. I've got old Best of Trek books with articles similarly "proving" TMP and TWoK are "alternate universes" to TOS. "This has happened before and it will happen aga--" ooops, wrong tv show.

 

[Cadet49]

Is XI considered to be an alternate timeline within the original canon, or is it a separate canon?

If they’re the same canon, there are some contradictions that are difficult to resolve. For example:

The characters played by Zoe Saldana and Anton Yelchin bear little resemblance to the characters played by Nichelle Nichols and Walter Koenig. The differences are not something that can easily be explained by the Narada's impact on the timeline.

Delta Vega is near the galactic perimeter in TOS and near Vulcan in XI.

In TOS, starships are a rare commodity, so much so that an object could leave Klingon space headed for Earth with only one Federation starship in a position to intercept and that one starship isn’t even ready for launch. In XI, the Federation is able to gather a TNG-ish 40-vessel fleet at Vulcan in almost no time. At least five (Farragut, Walcott, Hood, Antares, and Enterprise) are on Earth and ready to go. Similarly, the Klingons are able to muster a 47-ship fleet to confront the Narada.

Pike appears to be much older in XI than in TOS, despite XI being set nine years before The Cage.

The Kelvin has escape pods with which the entire crew is able to evacuate the ship. Federation ships in TOS apparently have no such capacity.

In TOS, Chekov is 22 years old at the time of Who Mourns for Adonis. In XI, he is 17. But XI is set nine years before WMFA. (Maybe it’s possible that the Narada's intervention caused him to be born several years earlier than in the original timeline, but that seems like a stretch.)

In XI, Scotty has a tribble at his post on Delta Vega. In TOS, removing a tribble from its predator-filled natural environment is a disaster.

Can all these differences be treksplained by the Narada’s intervention, or are they not required to be?

I found all these differences couldn't be explained away by Nero's interventions myself - I personally like to think that the divergence between the two timeslines happened back in episode one of Enterprise, when the Temporal Cold War started messing with the timeline. In this reality, agents from the future genetically enhanced the Suliban and gave them advanced weaponry, which led them to war with the Klingons, which led to a much earlier Earth-Federation First Contact, and these future agents also interfered in history by convincing the Xindi to attack Earth, whereas we might assume they didn't in the Prime Universe, since we never heard of this in the other series. After the conflict, when they learned Earth was not a threat, the Xindi may have shared their advanced technology with Earth, which could explain why the nuEnterprise is so much more advanced that the one we saw in the Prime Trek universe...

Point is, I think the alternate reality differences needed to have happened long prior to the film...
(Then again, I'm biased to preferring the prequel materials established in novels like The Romulan Way, Strangers from the Sky, Federation, so I often tend to consider the Enterprise series nuTrek too! :-) )

 

[Cadet49]

Is XI considered to be an alternate timeline within the original canon, or is it a separate canon?

If they’re the same canon, there are some contradictions that are difficult to resolve. For example:

The characters played by Zoe Saldana and Anton Yelchin bear little resemblance to the characters played by Nichelle Nichols and Walter Koenig. The differences are not something that can easily be explained by the Narada's impact on the timeline.

Delta Vega is near the galactic perimeter in TOS and near Vulcan in XI.

In TOS, starships are a rare commodity, so much so that an object could leave Klingon space headed for Earth with only one Federation starship in a position to intercept and that one starship isn’t even ready for launch. In XI, the Federation is able to gather a TNG-ish 40-vessel fleet at Vulcan in almost no time. At least five (Farragut, Walcott, Hood, Antares, and Enterprise) are on Earth and ready to go. Similarly, the Klingons are able to muster a 47-ship fleet to confront the Narada.

Pike appears to be much older in XI than in TOS, despite XI being set nine years before The Cage.

The Kelvin has escape pods with which the entire crew is able to evacuate the ship. Federation ships in TOS apparently have no such capacity.

In TOS, Chekov is 22 years old at the time of Who Mourns for Adonis. In XI, he is 17. But XI is set nine years before WMFA. (Maybe it’s possible that the Narada's intervention caused him to be born several years earlier than in the original timeline, but that seems like a stretch.)

In XI, Scotty has a tribble at his post on Delta Vega. In TOS, removing a tribble from its predator-filled natural environment is a disaster.

Can all these differences be treksplained by the Narada’s intervention, or are they not required to be?

I had a hard time explaining all these differences myself, regardless of what the scriptwriters said - I personally like to think that the divergence between the two timelines happened back in episode one of Enterprise, when the Temporal Cold War started messing with the timeline - I think perhaps they created this rift in the two universes at that point, or perhaps even when the Borg went back and tried to assimilate Earth in First Contact. In this reality, agents from the future genetically enhanced the Suliban and gave them advanced weaponry, which led them to war with the Klingons, which led to a much earlier Earth-Federation First Contact, and these future agents also interfered in history by convincing the Xindi to attack Earth, whereas we might assume they didn't in the Prime Universe, since we never heard of this in the other series. After the conflict, when they learned Earth was not a threat, the Xindi may have shared their advanced technology with Earth, which could explain why the nuEnterprise is so much more advanced that the one we saw in the Prime Trek universe...

Point is, I think the alternate reality differences needed to have happened long prior to the film...
(Then again, I'm biased to preferring the prequel materials established in novels like The Romulan Way, Strangers from the Sky, Federation, so I often tend to consider the Enterprise series nuTrek too! :-) )

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Never thought of it that way. But that makes perfect sense. That is one of the reasons I consider the Abramsverse a completely separate universe from the original Star Trek universe. The differences are too pronounced to be simply explained away by a single event caused by a single Romulan vessel.