I'm actually glad the mysteries of the Prophets were never solved. There should be some mysteries left in the universe.
S5:E22 "Children of Time" -- one of the most...
- Thread starter Captain Jerk
- Start date
I always assumed they were the inhabitants of Bajor before what we now know as Bajorans.
It would have been beyond hilarious if 'The Visitor' and 'Children of Time' were back-to-back episodes. First, Jake spends his entire life trying desperately to rescue his father from subspace, and eventually succeeds in bringing Sisko back in time to his younger self. Then the following week, Sisko goes back in time on the planet Gaia -- and starts a new family -- minus Jake. 
Yeah Yedrin's plan was silly, the original timeline events can't possibly be the same again in the next go round, there absolutely have to be different people born, the odds of all the same people being born again are probably close to nil. Ironically Miles eventually decided to go through with it all for Molly but chances are Molly would never be re-born. Yedrin should have masked the colonies and life signs somehow, then the timeline would be preserved ad infinitum. I don't think the writers even saw the flaws in their reasoning, or perhaps they did but figured the audience would be too dumb to notice.
Interesting, sort of reminds me of the ending to Battlestar Galactica. Can I ask what events in the series you think lend the best support to your theory?
I'm thinking it's their frequent talk of "We are of Bajor."
Just that I took the "we are of Bajor" talk to mean they were from there.It could also just be that Bajor was the closest planet to the wormhole and they always lived in there.
Got it. 
PROPHETS: We are of Bajor...
PICARD: Q? Is that you??
PROPHETS: You are the Picard...
PICARD: No more games, Q! I've had a bad case of diarrhea all day and there's only so much more shit I can take!!
PROPHETS: Darmok...and Jalad....
PICARD: ...At Tanagra?
PROPHETS: No, at Bajor.
PICARD: Not good enough, damn you, not good enough!!
*Suddenly LIKO from 'Who Watches the Watchers' shows up.*
LIKO: You've angered the Picard -- and we may all suffer for it!!!
PROPHETS: Who are you?
LIKO: The Picard has many servants.
PICARD: Liko, what are you doing here?? Never mind, I don't want to know.
PROPHETS: The Picard is aggressive. Unreasonable.
PICARD: I will be the judge of what is unreasonable!
*Picard actives a force field which surrounds and entraps the Prophets.*
PROPHETS: Why do you hold us?!
PICARD: I've decided to perform an experiment of my own. I want to see how you react to being imprisoned.
PROPHETS: Captain, please, our species cannot bear captivity!
PICARD: Get off my ship. NAGILUM.
*The Prophets vanish, and in their place appears...Nagilum.*
NAGILUM: Your life form surprises me more and more. How did you figure out it was me all along?
PICARD: The line must be drawn here! THIS far, NO further! And I will make you pay for what you've done.
NAGILUM: Jesus, Captain, can't you take a joke?
PROPHETS: We are of Bajor...
PICARD: Q? Is that you??
PROPHETS: You are the Picard...
PICARD: No more games, Q! I've had a bad case of diarrhea all day and there's only so much more shit I can take!!
PROPHETS: Darmok...and Jalad....
PICARD: ...At Tanagra?
PROPHETS: No, at Bajor.
PICARD: Not good enough, damn you, not good enough!!
*Suddenly LIKO from 'Who Watches the Watchers' shows up.*
LIKO: You've angered the Picard -- and we may all suffer for it!!!
PROPHETS: Who are you?
LIKO: The Picard has many servants.
PICARD: Liko, what are you doing here?? Never mind, I don't want to know.
PROPHETS: The Picard is aggressive. Unreasonable.
PICARD: I will be the judge of what is unreasonable!
*Picard actives a force field which surrounds and entraps the Prophets.*
PROPHETS: Why do you hold us?!
PICARD: I've decided to perform an experiment of my own. I want to see how you react to being imprisoned.
PROPHETS: Captain, please, our species cannot bear captivity!
PICARD: Get off my ship. NAGILUM.
*The Prophets vanish, and in their place appears...Nagilum.*
NAGILUM: Your life form surprises me more and more. How did you figure out it was me all along?
PICARD: The line must be drawn here! THIS far, NO further! And I will make you pay for what you've done.
NAGILUM: Jesus, Captain, can't you take a joke?
The Visitor was a similar choice. Old Jake didn't just kill 8000 people, he potentially wiped out billions (including Melanie), and apparently caused the dominion war in the process
Sisko wasn't ecstatic about that choice
Oh god.
Erasing a wrong timeline (and hence 'killing' the people that existed in it) isn't really a crime, I suppose.
(What to think about Captain Geordi who actually had the insolence to try to defend his wrong timeline in Voyager's Timeless? The guy got wat he deserved, erasure. )
(What to think about Captain Geordi who actually had the insolence to try to defend his wrong timeline in Voyager's Timeless? The guy got wat he deserved, erasure. )
With the massive changes we know Jakes decision had the butterfly effect would mean anyone born after the 2380s would likely be different (parents meet at different times, or don’t meet at all)
How does the mirror universe keep up, though? If we got a Mirror Universe story set after 2380 we'd probably still mostly see the same characters as in the Prime Universe ...
The Mirror universe never made sense in that way, but clearly Sisko's absence would have meant Mirror-Jenifer didn't recruit him in Shattered Mirror, the rebel's likely didn't fix the Defiant before Mirror-Worf attacked, and the rebellion was likely stomped out.
Had it been Children of Time with no crewe happened, The Emperor's New Cloak may well have occurred in a similar way (Zek may well have continued to the mirror universe, Quark would still be on DS9, although perhaps things would be different without his experience in Magnificent Ferengi (which likely wouldn't have happened as the Vorta they kidnapped in Rocks and Shoals would likely have died on that planet without the DS9 crew), and maybe DS9 would still be in Dominion hands, but Quark would have adapted.
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Lol that wasn't how the story was set up in that episode. There was never any mention or hint that what Jake was planning would erase his own timeline. Before he "cut the cord" at the end, he gave Melanie some words of wisdom and advice about how she should live the rest of her life -- not something he would do if he thought she would cease to exist in about 5 minutes or so.
(Unless he was cold blooded as hell. lol) And Sisko was unhappy because Jake killed himself so that he could be freed from subspace, he didn't want Jake to have to die for him. The implication to me is that there are 2 separate independent timelines, otherwise the writers would have raised the much larger moral implications of what Jake was planning as part of the story. Apparently the only real sacrifice was Jake's life. These two episodes were treating time travel a bit differently, otherwise I would have expected a scene more like this at the end:SISKO: Jake, is that you?? What are you doing here?? I don't remember saying your name 5 times in the mirror???
WISE OLD JAKE: I told you dad, I'm not the Candyman anymore, that was just a phase I was going through. I'm here to finally cut the cord and send you back in time.
SISKO: Jake don't do this!!! What about all the lives you'll be changing, and all the lives you'll be ending!!!
WISE OLD JAKE: Oh who cares about everyone else, all I care about is me and you! The rest of the universe can burn in hell for all I care.
But we got nothing like that because those weren't the implied consequences of Jake's actions in this particular time travel story.
What mystery? They're powerful aliens who exist outside of conventional spacetime thus having a somewhat non-linear view of events.
I personally don't mind characters being selfish in regard to timeline changing at the least I just don't think it's surprising not that rare and yes not particularly unethical, some or many people won't be born and many other people will be born and you really don't know how many people in alternate timeline will or won't be saved. If you do hate, strongly disapprove of future Odo in "Children of Time" or future Janeway in "Endgame" then you pretty much also have to hate future Jake in "The Visitor" which few do.
I did feel Odo through much of the series strongly loved Kira and it's understandable he, let alone after an additional long time of not having her, would do a lot for her and again with timeline change despite the selfishness involved the consequences are really unclear so the implications are also so it doesn't seem really bad.
It was an unusual, interesting ending, Sisko not happy about the choice, also thinking Jake kind of wasted of his life, but understanding it and not really able to condemn Jake, concluding that things are OK now, will be OK now, because they have to be, they have to be better.
I did feel Odo through much of the series strongly loved Kira and it's understandable he, let alone after an additional long time of not having her, would do a lot for her and again with timeline change despite the selfishness involved the consequences are really unclear so the implications are also so it doesn't seem really bad.
It was an unusual, interesting ending, Sisko not happy about the choice, also thinking Jake kind of wasted of his life, but understanding it and not really able to condemn Jake, concluding that things are OK now, will be OK now, because they have to be, they have to be better.
Please see my post before this one, I disagree with you here based on how the story was presented in The Visitor. One can debate what all the consequences of Jake's actions were, or should have been logically or theoretically, but if those consequences are not part of the story or brought up in any way we can't conclude them. The only real sacrifice made as per the story we were given was to old Jake's life, and therefore I believe rather than erasing his own timeline, his actions must cause a "branching" of timelines instead starting from the point of the original accident as the most reasonable outcome consistent with the story (as erasure is not consistent with the events and scenes of the episode).
We have to go with how the story was presented, we only need to "speculate" when it's not clear. In this case it was made quite clear that what Oldo did was "erase" the original timeline's descendants from existence. The whole episode was about the crew debating the right thing to do, trying to find a way to save these people from this fate and preferably be able to go home at the same time, hence the "doubling" idea. When it was discovered the doubling plan was a ruse, the crew mulled it over and decided going back was the morally right thing to do. After Kira found out what Oldo did she was appalled by it, it was made clear in the story itself without ambiguity that the people were erased from existence. (Whether or not this is scientifically or theoretically accurate or possible on the writers part is definitely a matter of debate, but regardless it's the set-up they went with.)
Sisko was upset solely about all the sacrifices Jake made his entire life, and at the end literally giving his life, all for him. Neither he nor Jake were concerned about any other potential ramifications to his actions, thus implying no other such ramifications exist (not as part of this particular time travel story set-up anyway).
Not for Jadzia.
Not for Jadzia.
You're right as it turned out, but there was a war. There was no telling which if either or both of them would die young.
If it's any consolation, she lived on in the "Candyman Jake" timeline, or Timeline A. And then after Sisko is sent back, presumably the timeline split off into Timeline B where Jadzia dies a year or few later. Erasure of Timeline A was not implied by the episode so to me, logically to be consistent with the episode, a branching must be the result of Old Jake's actions. Also she's not really dead and gone in Timeline B since Stovokor is apparently real in the Star Trek universe as per Voyager. Although I'm not sure why Worf assumes Jadzia went there, unless he believes Stovokor is the only real afterlife that exists. One would think the Prophets may have taken Jadzia's soul to "walk with them" instead given where she died and who/what killed her.
