S5:E22 "Children of Time" -- one of the most...

[Captain Jerk]

I rewatched this recently and feel it is one of the most thought-provoking episodes in the series. This was the episode where "Oldo" slaughtered 8,000+ people just to make sure young Odo and Kira had a chance to go out on their first date together. But before that happened, other issues and questions were raised, such as:

1. How was Worf so sure what would happen if they didn't repeat the accident? He had only just arrived on the planet and said it like it was a matter of undeniable fact that their timeline would simply cease to exist, there wasn't a doubt in his mind. But why, did he watch the episode beforehand?

2. Why was Jadzia so upset after she realized Yedrin lied about the duplication plan? Is it really that shocking? He's trying to preserve the existences of 8,000 current lives plus all the people that lived and died before the current 8,000. She was sooo mad at Yedrin, giving him a "how dare you!!" face straight out of O'Brien's worst Keiko nightmares. It was such a childish reaction.

3. Yedrin made a good point, that in the first or original run of the timeline, they all crashed and got stranded by "fate" or chance alone, and in that sense IS what was meant to happen, and the second run of the timeline (which is what we are watching in this episode), the second Defiant is given foreknowledge that the first run Defiant never had. The honourable thing for the second Defiant to do, IMO, is to repeat the accident. BUT the premise is flawed regardless as the second run Defiant crew has foreknowledge of things the first run Defiant never had, which should result in changes in events and different descendants. UNLESS Yedrin somehow made a painstakingly detailed record of who, where and when people hooked up and the second run Defiant crew pretty much repeats everything exactly the same following this script? The first timeline's history was doomed to be contaminated the moment they began interacting with the second timeline's Defiant. What Yedrin's plan SHOULD have been was to somehow mask the colonies and life signs in some way so that they weren't detected from orbit. Then the second Defiant would have done the exact same things and history would have repeated itself without all the drama.

4. Sisko said he didn't have the right to ask Kira to sacrifice her life to save 8,000 lives, or even 8 million lives. Really though? Captains do more than simply ask, they ORDER people to their deaths all the time to save lives. It seems to me the least he can do is ASK Kira if she was willing, never mind ordering her. Sisko was being such a chump in this scene.

5. Kira is immediately willing to die to save 8,000, thanks to her faith (presumably not fearing death because she believes she will be with the Prophets?). But has it ever been established that Bajorans have an afterlife? I understand Bajorans came to worship the Prophets thanks to being sent magical orbs and such in their history, but why are they so confident they will live on with the Prophets when they die? Is it written in their sacred texts? Has any character ever had an afterlife experience?

6. Miles says he doesn't believe in her Prophets, but why? It's not like other religions with no evidence of a God being real, the Prophets are as freakin' real as can be and proven to be godlike in their nature. Does he think Sisko has been making up all his own experiences with these beings? Miles also said no one had the right to tell him he couldn't go home to be back with his family. He's in Starfleet, his superiors have the right. Plus this was his big chance to finally escape Keiko, I would have expected him to be the FIRST to jump aboard the Gaia bandwagon, not the last.

7. Oldo trying to manipulate Kira into changing her mind about not going home to get treatment to live on was so scummy. Kira said she couldn't let 8,000 people die, then Oldo played the card "what about all the people who will never be born if the Defiant never returns to the station", and Kira correctly rebutted that those people don't exist yet, these people do. Oldo doesn't give ONE SHIT about other people's lives, all he cares about is his younger self getting a shot with Kira. What a douche. On a related note, I'm not sure if they ever made it clear why they simply couldn't let Kira take a shuttle and go home to the station alone. (Not a perfect solution as it is still a change to the original events that should have some repercussions on the original timeline and descendants, unless again Yedrin provided them a script to follow.)

8. After it is revealed what Oldo did, Kira was dismayed, and yet she still hooked up with Odo later on? Was she secretly flattered or turned on by Oldo's total devotion to and/or infatuation with her? It seems to me Oldo wouldn't have cared if there were 8 BILLION descendants that would've gone "poof", all that mattered was Kira, or perhaps more accurately giving his younger self a potential shot with her. This is the definition of Playing God, the same way the Founders do. Is this part of the attraction for Kira? She's in love with her gods the Prophets, and Odo is a godlike being in his own right. Kira's got a thing for gods it seems in all their shapes and forms.

9. Did Odo and Kira keep Oldo's actions a secret from everyone else? If not, how could anyone ever feel they could really trust Odo after this? Granted this was an older version of himself with different experiences underpinning his actions, but it still shows that if push came to shove he'd be willing to betray anything and everyone to serve his own selfish desires; he would hand the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion on a silver platter if it meant saving Kira's life -- AS LONG AS SHE WASN'T DATING SOMEONE ELSE, that is.

10. In the second to last scene, Sisko left us with a platitude after the colony vanished, that being: "They existed, and as long as we remember them, they always will." And that's that I suppose? (He might as well have just said "No big deal, let's go home people....hey I know what will cheer us up! Baseball!") Jadzia seemed more than satisfied with this platitude, she had a look of serene comfort and acceptance upon her face after this simple remark. Somehow all these people never lost a wink of sleep after this experience for the rest of their natural lives. Just like that Tuvix episode of Voyager. (If Tuvix had the chance to be buried he'd be rolling over in his grave right now.)

 

[Captain Jerk]

whoops my title got screwed up. No ability to edit it seems, sorry

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Did Odo and Kira keep Oldo's actions a secret from everyone else? If not, how could anyone ever feel they could really trust Odo after this?

Sisko gave everyone the right to refuse to stay/repeat the accident. Odo exercised that right.

 

[Captain Jerk]

Yeah but Oldo went rogue and went against the final agreed upon decision, for his own selfish reasons. I don't think that's what Sisko had in mind.

Interestingly Sisko and Jadzia had no idea who sabotaged the ship in the end and speculated it was probably Yedrin having a change of heart. (Everything's always Yedrin's fault for Jadzia.) It seems only Kira found out what Oldo did, because Odo chose to share it with her. I find it highly unlikely every last person agreed from the 46/47, so it would have been Sisko's final call in the end. Unless it's supposed to be implied the only real holdout was Miles, and after he agreed that settled it..

 

[Captrek]

9. Did Odo and Kira keep Oldo's actions a secret from everyone else? If not, how could anyone ever feel they could really trust Odo after this? Granted this was an older version of himself with different experiences underpinning his actions, but it still shows that if push came to shove he'd be willing to betray anything and everyone to serve his own selfish desires; he would hand the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion on a silver platter if it meant saving Kira's life -- AS LONG AS SHE WASN'T DATING SOMEONE ELSE, that is.

He later demonstrated that he was willing to hand the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion just to experience a few minutes of a two-changeling Link. And was quickly forgiven.

 

[gweeps]

"Oldo" Ha ha classic.

 

[Captain Jerk]

He later demonstrated that he was willing to hand the entire Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion just to experience a few minutes of a two-changeling Link. And was quickly forgiven.

Good point. Kira was so mad at him too, apparently she forgot all about the time Oldo didn't care about the 8,000 people he let blink out of existence. Big warning flag there. Odo has a tendency to do whatever makes Odo feel best, and to hell with everyone else. He did eventually snap out of the spell he was in with the female changeling, but still. I also remember how furious Odo was when he found out Section 31/the Federation was planning to wipe out his people with the virus to win the war, seemingly forgetting his own genocidal tendencies for much more petty and selfish reasons, like "maybe" getting a chance at love with Kira. "Maybe."

 

[gweeps]

Good point. Kira was so mad at him too, apparently she forgot all about the time Oldo didn't care about the 8,000 people he let blink out of existence. Big warning flag there. Odo has a tendency to do whatever makes Odo feel best, and to hell with everyone else. He did eventually snap out of the spell he was in with the female changeling, but still. I also remember how furious Odo was when he found out Section 31/the Federation was planning to wipe out his people with the virus to win the war, seemingly forgetting his own genocidal tendencies for much more petty and selfish reasons, like "maybe" getting a chance at love with Kira. "Maybe."

I guess even usually honourable Odo wasn't perfect.

 

[Captrek]

Good point. Kira was so mad at him too, apparently she forgot all about the time Oldo didn't care about the 8,000 people he let blink out of existence. Big warning flag there. Odo has a tendency to do whatever makes Odo feel best, and to hell with everyone else. He did eventually snap out of the spell he was in with the female changeling, but still. I also remember how furious Odo was when he found out Section 31/the Federation was planning to wipe out his people with the virus to win the war, seemingly forgetting his own genocidal tendencies for much more petty and selfish reasons, like "maybe" getting a chance at love with Kira. "Maybe."

And ultimately, he was with her for about a year before ditching her.

 

[at Quark's]

If they hadn't returned to the station, the Dominion would have taken over the AQ, possibly resulting in hundreds of billions of deaths. In that sense, going back was always the right solution. Not that they knew that at that point, of course, but there would have been no Emissary to convince the Prophets to not let those dominion reinforcements through.

In reply to some of the points of the opening poster

3. You're right, that's what Yedrin should have done. We wouldn't have had any episode in that case though

5. The fact that Kira believes in the prophets to guide her life doesn't necessarily include a belief in an afterlife. Some people are willing to give their life for 'the good cause' without believing in an afterlife. For example, there are enough soldiers that have done so.
6. I think Miles doesn't believe in them as Prophets (but still as wormhole aliens). Much like Picard believes Q is a powerful entity, but no god.

And yeah, I think Oldo (legendary name btw) was morally questionable, but I also think Kira realised that Odo wasn't the same person as Oldo, so she couldn't hold what Oldo had done against him. After all, up until that point Odo had always been known for his strict integrity. I agree that Odo's behavior later in the season should have given her far more pause, though.

 

[Captain Jerk]

I guess even usually honourable Odo wasn't perfect.

It's true...but I think we can both agree he/Oldo was a perfect mass murderer...and during the Occupation, the perfect collaborator. Lol a lot like how Sisko was the perfect assassin and perfect poisoner of planets, and the perfect hypocrite (I wonder if he was a secret agent of Section 31?). They were all perfect in their own ways. lol j/k

And ultimately, he was with her for about a year before ditching her.

You mean like the time Kes begged Janeway to murder Tuvix so she could have Neelix back, only to dump him a few episodes later? Lol Oldo totally Tuvixed the people of Gaia.

If they hadn't returned to the station, the Dominion would have taken over the AQ, possibly resulting in hundreds of billions of deaths. In that sense, going back was always the right solution. Not that they knew that at that point, of course, but there would have been no Emissary to convince the Prophets to not let those dominion reinforcements through.

Exactly, we can't call it the right decision at the time, only with that foreknowledge. I have no doubt though the Prophets would have came to Sisko in a vision or something if they needed to, but they
knew what would happen with Oldo so it was unnecessary. The Pah-wraiths and Dukat had no real chance against the Prophets who manipulated events to ensure outcomes they desired thanks to their pre-knowledge of past, present and future. It made Dukat in particular look foolish thinking he could somehow outwit or surprise the Prophets when they had such a massive clear advantage.

You're right, that's what Yedrin should have done. We wouldn't have had any episode in that case though.

It would have been great if they had one of the characters bring this up at some point in casual conversation during their final meal together or something:

BASHIR: "You know Yedrin, you could have just masked the colonies and life signs, that would have given you your desired outcome, and with far less risk."

YEDRIN: "Jeez Julian, couldn't you have mentioned that 200 years ago?"

BASHIR: "You never asked." (I realize this joke doesn't make sense since this is the pre-accident Bashir, the post-accident Bashir is long dead at this point. heh Even if they figured this out though, if Oldo caught wind of this plan he would have no doubt sabotaged it.)

The fact that Kira believes in the prophets to guide her life doesn't necessarily include a belief in an afterlife. Some people are willing to give their life for 'the good cause' without believing in an afterlife. For example, there are enough soldiers that have done so.

But in this case they do believe in an afterlife, made clear when Kai Winn walked in on Kira praying once and remarked, "It's been three months since Bareil left us to walk with the Prophets." So what I am wondering is if the Prophets themselves ever revealed this to be true to the Bajoran people in some way, whether any character ever had a near-death experience or something, or whether the Bajorans merely assume this to be true?

I think Miles doesn't believe in them as Prophets (but still as wormhole aliens). Much like Picard believes Q is a powerful entity, but no god.

The question to me is whether this remark from Miles means he doesn't believe them to be gods of any kind (just wormhole aliens mistaken to be gods by a naive culture), or whether he means that while they may indeed be Kira's peoples' gods, they aren't his God -- ie. they don't care about what happens to him in his life, nor do they await him in any afterlife. If it's the former (just aliens and the Bajorans are naive), it makes him look quite stupid given not only does an entire society worship these beings as gods, but they are revealed to be real when the wormhole is discovered, and Sisko himself has had experiences with them that show their natures to be godlike and in line with their beliefs. Q on the other hand is not a foundation for any religion (that we know of anyway) and never claimed to be a god, except jokingly to annoy and terrorize Picard and company. The Prophets on the other hand never deny being the gods that the Bajorans worship, they basically admit it without explicitly saying so. It is revealed with their actions.

 

[Farscape One]

Another theory I had before... could the Prophets be a future evolution of Bajorans? Might explain why they say 'we are of Bajor'.

 

[Trekker09]

I agree it’s a haunting thought-provoking story –an ethical Kobayashi Maru. The most disturbing part to me was O’Brien suddenly changing his mind to abandon his family, after one bit of dialogue with Molly in the field (Keiko could be pretty annoying, but still)…Worf has no hesitation about leaving Alexander...Sisko was willing to make his son a total orphan.
"Children of time" struck me as one of those episodes that should have had more fallout afterward.

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Sisko...

I think what motivated Ben's thinking about Jake here, and by extension why he appeared to Kasidy but didn't appear to Jake in the finale, is that he has seen a possible future for Jake, one with a wife and a career as a well known writer. I think that gave Ben a sense of peace knowing he will be okay.

Another point to consider is that by this time, Jake was an adult and already moved out on his own. He's becoming his own man. There comes a point where you have to let your children grow up and be who they will be.


Worf... well, he has a lot of admirable traits, but he was a bad dad, so no surprise there.


O'Brien... that's tough. I think it's telling that he had no interaction with those people until that time in the field, and he was staunchly against staying. I think he knew that if he spent any time with them, especially little Molly there, he couldn't go through with letting them cease to exist. Children have a powerful impact on people (at least, they do for me), and after talking and working with Molly, I can't imagine Miles, being the kind of man he is, would allow children to die if he could do something about it.

 

[Trekker09]

Children have a powerful impact on people (at least, they do for me)....

That was kind of my point, that O'Brien would have put his own two children's lives first.

There were some light-hearted moments -- like Quark as the virtual math teacher.

 

[Farscape One]

Perhaps I was unclear.

What I mean to say is O'Brien's kids would still be alive with Keiko, with or without Miles. The children on Gaia would cease to exist unless he changed his vote. My guess is he realized this after spending some time with little Molly there.

In a sense, Miles was putting his children's lives first, too... the ones that were going to be born in that timeline. And their kids, and their kids' kids, and their kids' kids' kids... a whole line of O'Briens.

 

[Trekker09]

It was clear, I just didn’t say exactly what I meant – O’Brien’s family would continue to exist, but their lives would be forever damaged without him, and he’d be heartbroken missing them. Or so I project it.
It’s an almost unimaginable circumstance in this episode, and so often the Star Trek crew is altruistic and self-sacrificing, but I thought it would make sense for O'Brien to decide based on the emotional impact on himself and his loved ones for the immediate future or a few decades, rather than hundreds of years.

 

[Captain Jerk]

Another theory I had before... could the Prophets be a future evolution of Bajorans? Might explain why they say 'we are of Bajor'.

The showrunners definitely left a lot of unsolved mysteries when it came to the Prophets, and the Pah-wraiths too. I have heard this theory before and it has a logic to it for sure. By protecting Bajor they are protecting themselves. And since they exist across all time, one could imagine they are responsible for their own creation, through a causal loop type set-up where the only reason they evolve to what they become is because of their involvement with early Bajorans.

The most disturbing part to me was O’Brien suddenly changing his mind to abandon his family, after one bit of dialogue with Molly in the field (Keiko could be pretty annoying, but still)

Yup, he basically decided to do it to make sure this one person (Molly) in particular would get a chance at life. Sort of like how it all came down to one person for Oldo. Except Oldo didn't do what he did just to save Kira, he did it for his younger self. If Kira told him in no uncertain terms there was no chance for them romantically, he wouldn't have done it. But she foolishly told him "maybe" and that was enough motivation for Oldo, and to hell with the 8,000+ descendants. And back to O'Brien again, maybe the real reason he was against it at first was because over time he has developed a "knee-jerk reaction" to be terrified of Keiko and her wrath...Hell hath no fury like Keiko O'Brien scorned.

Worf has no hesitation about leaving Alexander...

Lol yeah. Worf is all about honour, so sacrificing his own life and wants/needs so that others can live was in line with his character. Would guarantee him a spot in Stovokor probably. lol

Sisko was willing to make his son a total orphan.

Lol. And this was sometime after the episode The Visitor too where Jake devoted his entire life to bringing Sisko back from subspace... haha.

 

[somebuddyX]

I like the concept but can't really get behind the ethical conundrum. Either time is a loop and nothing can be done or time is malleable and nothing can be done. Even if they'd succeeded, going back in time with the future knowledge would have resulted in huge changes. Would O'Brien get down with his new missus thinking he has to follow through to preserve the timeline or balk and stay celibate or something? They needed to build one of those Krenim temporal shields and pray to God it never stopped working.

 

[kkt]

I have limited patience with time travel stories. Okay, City on the Edge of Forever was pretty good... but that was despite, not because of, the time travel in the show.