Spoilers S31: Disavowed by David Mack Review Thread

[Enterprise1701]

(as well as the notion that our Odo may have come from the Mirror Universe).

Really? That's odd. So if our Odo is from the MU, then is the mirror Odo from the regular Trekverse? And how'd they manage to switch places?

I guess it would fit, though, since MU Odo was such an arrogant jackass - like most Founders of the RU were.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that such a switch had actually taken place, only that it was as if it had, given the nature of the two Odos and how each was more suited to the other universe's Changeling culture. An observation, nothing more. That said, I guess you could take it as a literal hypothesis, since both Odos came through the wormhole on their way in from Gamma Quadrant, and as this book stresses several times the wormhole is the surest "natural" way to cross between the realities. So, maybe they did switch. Although I didn't assume the novel was saying they had.

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels". At a staff meeting to discuss the appearance of mirror Illiana Ghemor in the prime universe, Julian Bashir explains about Worf's experience in 2370 to everyone else who was unaware and also says that the computer checked mirror Illiana's quantum resonance signature and came up with only one match: mirror Bareil Antos who had crossed over in 2374.

I would think that at some point given all their encounters with doppelgangers from the mirror universe, the DS9 crew would have done quantum scans of themselves, including Odo.

So while an intriguing theory, I don't take that section to mean that prime and mirror Odo had been switched.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Really? That's odd. So if our Odo is from the MU, then is the mirror Odo from the regular Trekverse? And how'd they manage to switch places?

I guess it would fit, though, since MU Odo was such an arrogant jackass - like most Founders of the RU were.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that such a switch had actually taken place, only that it was as if it had, given the nature of the two Odos and how each was more suited to the other universe's Changeling culture. An observation, nothing more. That said, I guess you could take it as a literal hypothesis, since both Odos came through the wormhole on their way in from Gamma Quadrant, and as this book stresses several times the wormhole is the surest "natural" way to cross between the realities. So, maybe they did switch. Although I didn't assume the novel was saying they had.

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels". At a staff meeting to discuss the appearance of mirror Illiana Ghemor in the prime universe, Julian Bashir explains about Worf's experience in 2370 to everyone else who was unaware and also says that the computer checked mirror Illiana's quantum resonance signature and came up with only one match: mirror Bareil Antos who had crossed over in 2374.

So I would think that at some point given all their encounters with doppelgangers from the mirror universe, the DS9 crew would have done quantum scans of themselves, including Odo.

Well remembered! There we are, then.

 

[flandry84]

Nothing I've ever seen from Starfleet Intelligence(either onscreen or in Treklit) convinces me that they are competent enough to protect the federation.
So reluctantly,I would have to hope that 31 stays in business.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Any intelligence work that can't be done by a legitimate organization with rules and regs, such as SI, doesn't deserve to get done at all.

 

[trash80]

S31 are legitimate and have rules and regulations, they just haven't told the rest of Star Fleet yet.

 

[Sci]

S31 are legitimate and have rules and regulations, they just haven't told the rest of Star Fleet yet.

No, Section 31 is not legitimate. It operates without accountability to the legitimate democratic government, and it places itself above the law. Therefore, it is not legitimate and should be immediately dissolved and its leaders placed under arrest.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Building on that: Section 31 claims to safeguard the Federation, but the Federation considers accountability to the people and transparency of government policy to be essential to its identity, and is structured upon these ideals, to the extent that they are integral. Section 31 is therefore not defending the Federation. It can claim to be defending *the populations that make up the Federation*, but it isn't defending the Federation. It's undermining it. Besides the inherent problems with what they do, the biggest issue with 31 is how they do it - by claiming to represent or be a legitimate part of the same social system they're corrupting. If they admitted that they were an entirely rogue group who operated independently to protect the peoples of the Federation without Federation approval, if they broke with the UFP entirely, then they might have some odd legitimacy for all that the UFP would still need to hunt them down and arrest them, and be justified in doing so. As it is, though, Section 31 nestle within the Federation and point to a few lines in the old articles to justify an expansive program of operations that undermines the UFP entirely. Even their very name is an attempt to claim "we're an acceptable and legitimate branch of the UFP!"... but they're not.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

On the one hand, I agree that Section 31 is not legitimate and that not answering to a higher authority is wrong and ripe for abuse.

On the other hand, what if they did answer to the Federation president and his name was Ishan Anjar?

 

[Sci]

On the one hand, I agree that Section 31 is not legitimate and that not answering to a higher authority is wrong and ripe for abuse.

On the other hand, what if they did answer to the Federation president and his name was Ishan Anjar?

Answering to a particular person doesn't mean shit; it just means he's part of the conspiracy, too.

Answering to the government no matter who happens to be in office is what matters.

By that standard, for Section 31 to be legitimate, it would need to answer to the Federation President (and, as part of Starfleet, to the Federation Secretary of Defense before the President), and would need to subject itself to oversight from the Federation Council in whatever manner said Council should so determine. It would also need to submit itself to Federation law rather than holding itself immune--meaning, amongst other things, that its agents who have conspired to commit terrible crimes would need to be arrested and prosecuted.

Then and only then could Section 31 be legitimate.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

On the one hand, I agree that Section 31 is not legitimate and that not answering to a higher authority is wrong and ripe for abuse.

On the other hand, what if they did answer to the Federation president and his name was Ishan Anjar?

Also answering to a lower authority; to the various peoples, nations and individuals that make up the Federation. After all, in a democratic system like the UFP, higher authorities answer to the populations they govern/serve. Section 31 can claim to serve the interests of the Federation peoples if it wants (more to the point, what it considers to be their interests), but it can't legitimately claim to be a part of their system.

I would argue that the whole point of answering to a higher authority in a set-up like the UFP is that said authority is itself answerable to the masses and takes responsibility before the people. Someone like Ishan may be a higher authority, but he is not acting in accordance with the criteria needed to legitimate such authority within the UFP, so that wouldn't legitimate 31 either.

 

[DS9forever]

I think Odo's statement in "The Dogs of War" is pretty accurate: "The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?"

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Really? That's odd. So if our Odo is from the MU, then is the mirror Odo from the regular Trekverse? And how'd they manage to switch places?

I guess it would fit, though, since MU Odo was such an arrogant jackass - like most Founders of the RU were.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that such a switch had actually taken place, only that it was as if it had, given the nature of the two Odos and how each was more suited to the other universe's Changeling culture. An observation, nothing more. That said, I guess you could take it as a literal hypothesis, since both Odos came through the wormhole on their way in from Gamma Quadrant, and as this book stresses several times the wormhole is the surest "natural" way to cross between the realities. So, maybe they did switch. Although I didn't assume the novel was saying they had.

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels".

Actually the Shatnerverse books did it first, but its the first Treklit-verse one to.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels".

What else could it have been? In the MU's first ever appearance, Kirk refers to it as a parallel universe.

On the other hand, what if they did answer to the Federation president and his name was Ishan Anjar?

Considering Ishan's past, that would only make Section 31 worse, not better...

 

[Enterprise1701]

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels".

Actually the Shatnerverse books did it first, but its the first Treklit-verse one to.

Oops, my mistake.

It was Fearful Symmetry which first explicitly confirmed that the mirror universe was a parallel quantum reality in the vein of "Parallels".

What else could it have been? In the MU's first ever appearance, Kirk refers to it as a parallel universe.

Well that's what I've thought, but Kirk also mentioned "dimensional planes", and the words "dimension" and "universe" have not always been consistently used in Star Trek. One could take Kirk's words in "Mirror, Mirror" to mean that the mirror universe is like the Sphere Builders' home in ENT, Elysia from TAS: "The Time Trap", or the subspace domains in TNG: "Schisms". And as far as I know, producers have never operated under the assumption that those are like parallel quantum realities because they're not.

 

[DimesDan]

Well I liked it.

 

[Ronald Held]

I may be in the minority but do not want to see Bashir stories involving spying. I do appreciate the consistency between the end of Silent Weapons and this novel.

 

[DS9forever]

Regarding Section 31: Control, are we likely to see it published in 2015?

 

[Jedi_Master]

I interpreted Memory Omega's role as a mirror-image of Section 31: tasked in the past with preserving and protecting a civilization, and completing that task based on its own perceptions and ideals, albeit in a more altruistic and morally honest fashion than the Section.

 

[David Mack]

Regarding Section 31: Control, are we likely to see it published in 2015?

No. I'm not scheduled to turn in the manuscript until September 1, 2015, so the earliest it's likely to be published is April or May 2016.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I interpreted Memory Omega's role as a mirror-image of Section 31: tasked in the past with preserving and protecting a civilization, and completing that task based on its own perceptions and ideals, albeit more altruistic and morally honest than the Section.

Yeah, does Section 31 even make an effort to follow Federation values?