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S13E04 "Village of the Angels" BBC1 6.20-7.15pm 21st November

Rate "Village of the Angels"

  • Angelic

    Votes: 13 39.4%

  • 2

    Votes: 8 24.2%

  • 3

    Votes: 5 15.2%

  • 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 5

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • 6

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • 7

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • 8

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • 9

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Demonic

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • Total voters
    33
Unless Susan's memory was wiped also?

The Doctor was working for Division a long time. Let's suppose that eventually Division decided to retire the Doctor. They forced a regeneration on Jo Martin's Doctor (or maybe the one that came after her) turning her into Hartnell, who'd had his memory wiped/tinkered with to make him believe he was the first incarnation. Now maybe Susan was the Doctor's final companion of the Division era, and the Doctor insisted that any deal involved her too. Maybe she wasn't even a she, maybe a male Timelord was regenerated into Susan, possibly as a young child, and given false memories to match the Doctor. Does it sound far fetched? Maybe, but Tennant, Yana and Martin all thought they were human and had detailed memories to match so it's clearly not beyond Timelord technology.

For me the sticking point (aside from the Tardis as a police box which can be explained away) is how the wider Timelord society wouldn't have been aware of the Doctor's previous life working for Division? Unless it so was hush hush that very few people know she existed?

Whether Hartnell was a recent regeneration and Susan a former companion, or whether Hartnell began life as a young man and grew up, married and had kids who had a daughter etc hardly matters. Presumably at some point the niggling concerns that had been at the back of his mind his whole life, that something wasn't quite right, that he didn't know all he should know about himself, that some memories seemed a trifle thin, prompted him to run, and whether she was his actual granddaughter or not, both he and Susan believed she was so she went along with him.
 
For those worried about the Timeless Child being Vinder/Bel's kid... the above raises a new suspicion... either Vinder or Bel could be the Doctor's child. And the baby will become Susan.

The original Cartmel Plan would have had the Doctor be the reincarnation of "The Other" (a legendary figure and contemporary of Rassilon) and Susan was actually The Other's granddaughter. When the Doctor "first" escaped Gallifrey (as Hartnell) the Hand of Omega took him back to the Dark Times (where the Other had sacrificed himself to a mob) and he encountered Susan (threatened by said mob), who somehow recognised him as "her" grandfather and left with him.

Now, as a counterargument, we have Clara's fragment flashing back to One AND Susan leaving Gallifrey together rather than him stealing the TARDIS first, but if the mindwipe is that perfect, the Doctor's own timestream might be a bit wonky.
 
Starkers said:
Worth remembering that the mysterious backstory for the Doctor started in er, checks notes, 1963...
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Thanks! I thought about that later but was doing other things. :D

I mean, the ambiguity is right there in the name of the show (and running gag): "I'm The Doctor." "Doctor who?"

Asbo Zaprudder said:
Yeah, there was no sign of her supposed husband in "The Five Doctors".
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I always assumed that Susan, being Gallifreyan, has a longer lifespan than a human. So in my head canon, he died.

Starkers said:
Unless Susan's memory was wiped also?

The Doctor was working for Division a long time. Let's suppose that eventually Division decided to retire the Doctor. They forced a regeneration on Jo Martin's Doctor (or maybe the one that came after her) turning her into Hartnell, who'd had his memory wiped/tinkered with to make him believe he was the first incarnation. Now maybe Susan was the Doctor's final companion of the Division era, and the Doctor insisted that any deal involved her too. Maybe she wasn't even a she, maybe a male Timelord was regenerated into Susan, possibly as a young child, and given false memories to match the Doctor. Does it sound far fetched? Maybe, but Tennant, Yana and Martin all thought they were human and had detailed memories to match so it's clearly not beyond Timelord technology.

For me the sticking point (aside from the Tardis as a police box which can be explained away) is how the wider Timelord society wouldn't have been aware of the Doctor's previous life working for Division? Unless it so was hush hush that very few people know she existed?

Whether Hartnell was a recent regeneration and Susan a former companion, or whether Hartnell began life as a young man and grew up, married and had kids who had a daughter etc hardly matters. Presumably at some point the niggling concerns that had been at the back of his mind his whole life, that something wasn't quite right, that he didn't know all he should know about himself, that some memories seemed a trifle thin, prompted him to run, and whether she was his actual granddaughter or not, both he and Susan believed she was so she went along with him.
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Very interesting thoughts! Yeah, there are tons of possibilities that wouldn't negate anything already seen.

matthunter said:
For those worried about the Timeless Child being Vinder/Bel's kid... the above raises a new suspicion... either Vinder or Bel could be the Doctor's child. And the baby will become Susan.

The original Cartmel Plan would have had the Doctor be the reincarnation of "The Other" (a legendary figure and contemporary of Rassilon) and Susan was actually The Other's granddaughter. When the Doctor "first" escaped Gallifrey (as Hartnell) the Hand of Omega took him back to the Dark Times (where the Other had sacrificed himself to a mob) and he encountered Susan (threatened by said mob), who somehow recognised him as "her" grandfather and left with him.

Now, as a counterargument, we have Clara's fragment flashing back to One AND Susan leaving Gallifrey together rather than him stealing the TARDIS first, but if the mindwipe is that perfect, the Doctor's own timestream might be a bit wonky.
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More interesting things to ponder! :biggrin:

Where'd you get the Other info?
 
There’s an also the alternative version (which to be honest cold work alongside it) laid out in The Black Scrolls of Rassilon section of The Gallifrey Chronicles by John Peel.
The NA version is being touched upon strongly this season… the Flux is very similar in some respects to The Process, from a certain point of view, and the Tardis is getting battered. It’s not the first time… there are elements of the NAs and particularly the EDAs that have been repurposed since the show came back, including the Time War. (Clara bears a strong resemblance to Sam/Dark Sam, and her ending even has similarities to Fitz.)
‘The Other’ whilst not my favourite thing, did have some nice thematic links with TV Who, in that the Doctor was more Reincarnation that Regeneration of The Other. Which when you consider all the Buddhist elements intentionally popped into Who over the years, really worked.
 
Are we overthinking Susan's knowledge of the Doctor's past? The Hartnell Doctor seems to have been regenerated as a kid after the memory wipe, and remembers being childhood friends with The Master and Clara hiding under his bed and meeting the wise man who taught him to see the world in color and going to the academy and various grandmothers...he couldn't have just started a family in that lifetime then took off with his clueless-as-him granddaughter at 450?
 
Speaking of Clara…
Interesting implication there with he being plintered across the Doctor‘s timeline, but only as far back as Hartnell.
Can we assume that Division did more than wipe their memories? Maybe they put some kind of time lock on all previous lives, Clara and the Great Intelligence couldn’t breach through.
 
Starkers said:
It's interesting to note how well the above could feed into the Timless Child.
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I never got the sense that Hartnell's Doctor couldn't remember where he was from or that he felt like he was being pursued. It mainly seemed like he wanted to go to new places and poke his nose into things. All in all, they didn't really play up the mystery consistently.

God, I hope the Timeless Child turns out to be the Master. It just makes so much more sense and is a more interesting addition to the mythos.
 
matthunter said:
It was in the New Adventures novels written after the classic series was cancelled. But based heavily on what Cartmel had in mind had the show continued.
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The Nth Doctor said:
The Big Finish audio plays address what happens to him when The Eighth Doctor finally returns...and so much more. Well worth listening to unspoiled.
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Thanks! I haven't read or listened to those, so I need to check these out.

jaime said:
Which when you consider all the Buddhist elements intentionally popped into Who over the years, really worked.
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I've not heard about this. Would you elaborate?
 
Commander Troi said:
Thanks! I haven't read or listened to those, so I need to check these out.


I've not heard about this. Would you elaborate?
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Barry Letts particularly was getting into Buddhism towards the end of the Third Doctor Era (which is why we get the monks) and with ‘regeneration’ definitely began to see how Doctor Who could work with elements introduced as subtle themes. I believe he is on record as saying it was the Thirds arrogance (stealing the Crystal) that led to him having to atone (returning it, saving Sarah etc) before he regenerated.

Then we have things like Kinda, and all sorts here and there in the eighties. By the time the NA’s roll around, the writers are looking at all sorts of religious and mythological aspects to play with in Who, but that strain of Buddhist though goes back farthest, and really gets played up. (The Doctor meditating on a mountain in Gallifrey and the flower being referred back to a few times.) This continues in the EDAs as well, particularly when the Faction Paradox fiddle with the Third Doctor’s regeneration, and the Tardis becomes the Edifice over Gallifrey.
(Not to mention afterwards, when the time lords are removed from the universe and there’s all sorts of ‘magic’ introduced to fill the void.)

There is *tons* of symbolism introduced to Who at the time, which you could sort of see strands of right up until Moffat left.
 
jaime said:
Barry Letts particularly was getting into Buddhism towards the end of the Third Doctor Era (which is why we get the monks) and with ‘regeneration’ definitely began to see how Doctor Who could work with elements introduced as subtle themes. I believe he is on record as saying it was the Thirds arrogance (stealing the Crystal) that led to him having to atone (returning it, saving Sarah etc) before he regenerated.

Then we have things like Kinda, and all sorts here and there in the eighties.
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Thanks for the reminder! It's been ages since I've seen those, but now I get what you're talking about.
 
The Angels work best not associated with the Division or any other entity, save perhaps with The Satan Pit. Daleks and Cybermen should run from them.

I want to see heavily eroded ones with no faces emerging from a city buried beneath the sands…like Bethmoora.
 
Just realised I never commented on this episode. I don't have much to say, the single worst use of the weeping angels, and just a generally crappy episode.
 
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