S1 Energy problems but holodecks on 24/7

[exodus]

while being pursued by nasty aliens (not the laughable Kaxons "aka Klingons lite"),

See, that's something else people just don't get about VOY: They didn't have much of a choice when creating their aliens when it came to overall power. If they made the aliens into strong empires then VOY would've been destroyed in 5 minutes, meaning they had to be weak enough that VOY could escape or defeat them in every encounter.

So it's either make them strong and everyone dies in 5 minutes, or make them weak and get endless cruel criticisms for letting the crew live.

Which is it?

Actually, I did "get Voyager." And it doesn't have to be as black and white as you suggest. I don't think that my original post referred to the Kazon as being weak in terms of power -- I called them "Klingons lite" -- and I was not talking about their firepower. The Klingons or Romulans did not have overwhelming technology... but they were INTERESTING and ENGAGING -- which the Kazon were not.

I didn't want superpowered aliens --- just interesting ones.

NuBSG featured strong and interesting antagonists and the Battlestar held its own for four seasons. My point was that Voyager could have been like this -- instead we got the Kazon, Malons, etc. When interesting villains were created (Vidiians, Species 8472, Hirogen) they were mishandled for the most part and their potential never realized. That left us with the Borg -- they may have originated in the Delta Quadrant but their overuse made Voyager seem even more like a TNG retread.

I personally don't see how calling and comparing Voy to TNG is an insult. TNG reset the standard of what Trek is today and was the best recieved one to date. I see Voy beging compared to TNG as a compliment because it tried to follow in the foot steps in concepts and asspects that made Trek great again. The more depressing Trek got(DS9 as an example), the more that audience TNG grabbed started to turn away.

Besides, if VOy had been more like nuBSG I doubt the comments would be in favor of it. It would end up being the same debates we get now about who ripped off who when posters compare DS9 to B5.

One thing If learned from this place, Trek fans are never satisfied and will go out of their way to find something to complain about even when they're getting their way.

 

[kimc]

To be fair to the VOY staff, they were ordered directly by UPN to drop any tensions between the crews and have them all get along. They were afraid a show with crew tensions wouldn't make the money they wanted.

In my opinion, this was a colossal mistake and resulted in Voyager being TNG-Lite. Wouldn't it have been cool if the network and producers had taken a Nu-BSG approach to the series? The quest to voyage back to the alpha quadrant, while being pursued by nasty aliens (not the laughable Kaxons "aka Klingons lite"), the ship malfunctioning, real tensions amongst the divided crew of Maquis and Starfleet, the struggle to find supplies, provisions, etc. Would have been a great series -- instead we got pool tables, resorts, pubs, Captain Proton, and small Irish towns on the Holodeck!

As much as I love and adore nuBSG I don't want Trek to start imitating it. The whole concept of the Star Trek universe is that humanity overcomes many of its petty shortcomings and evolves. Trek is about a hopeful future - as much a sci fi concept as transporters and replicators imo but still enjoyable to watch.

BSG, on the other hand is about humanity's downfall and explores the question of "are we worthy of survival?".

That being said there are some things Voyager could have done better. For one, it was completely implausible that the holodecks could be used when there wasn't enouigh energy to power everything else. Also, the show had great characters - focus should have been on writing character-driven stories rather than stories featuring the kewl explosion of the week.

Another advantage BSG had was the Sci-Fi network pretty much let Ron Moore and Co. alone creatively. UPN took the opposite approach and interfered with everything from straying from the original premise to how Janeway wore her hair.

I personally enjoy both shows for what they are. However, while with nuBSG I felt satisfied that I was told a good story there's a certain bittersweet quality when I re-watch Voyager. Quite frankly, it could have gone better.

 

[Harvey]

As for BSG comparisons, when Paris wants to make a new flier, with replicators and incredibly advanced computers (meaning incredibly advanced CAD,) it's handwaving. When BSG wants to make a new flier with out replicators but with retro computers, handwaving turns into a slap in the face. There's a difference between willing suspension of disbelief and being played. That sort of thing is like Moore said to himself, they liked Voyager, I'll give them Voyager.

Couldn't resist making a lame swipe at Ronald D. Moore? Never mind that the episode in question, Flight of the Phoenix, takes place over many weeks--the Blackbird isn't built overnight. The assertion that the Blackbird couldn't be designed without advanced computers is silly, since all of its advanced components are shown to be taken from other craft that have fallen into disrepair. Hell, when even the skeptical Colonel Tigh is convinced, the implication is that nearly everyone in the crew helps out. And even then, it takes the aforementioned manu weeks to build a craft that barely flies, is quickly destroyed, and still Adama describes its completion as a "miracle."

Hardly a slap in the face.

However, I will agree that Voyager's continued functionality despite it's absurd state of disrepair in Year of Hell is somewhat silly. It doesn't make sense that Janeway would be so upset at Chakotay for replicating a watch because it uses up valuable materials when there are broken bits of the ship all over the place. Why not shovel up some of that material and use it for repairs? Clearly it's an example of aesthetics winning over science.

 

[exodus]

^^Because the replicators were offline.


However, her point still doesn't hold water. How could the watch be a meal for somebody if the replicators were off line? He wouldn't be able to recycle it anyway.

Chalk it up to one more reason why Chakotay choose Seven over Janeway in "Endgame".

 

[stj]

Energy/replicator rationing on Voyager is like taking a paper clip out of the trailer of an eighteen wheeler to save gas. Even speculative warp drives require enormous amounts of energy. Babble about deprrivation is nonsense. Only by subsituting even more flagrant nonsense, like an FTL drive that operates with the fuel requirements of a family sedan, or at most, a fighter jet, justifies it.

Strictly speaking, a spacecraft can be designed with an abacus, if you're willing to spend months or years at it. Using parts from other craft obviously solves manufacturing problems but makes design even harder. The number of people involved is relevant only to the need to lift massive weights.

The idea that showing privation would have made Voyager better is itself the lamest of lame swipes , especially when made by a writer who went on to do much worse. The dumb ramming scene in Year of Hell was matched with one in the BSG series finale for instance. Except that the Galactica stays airtight, the hole it makes stays airtight () and the ship can still get away. Then, it "breaks its back." A sailing vessel's keel can be broken when the ship hangs suspended at bow and stern by two large waves, I gather. Not only are there no waves, and no literal keel, but operation of BSG's (even more ludicrous) drive was never shown to exert any forces whatsoever. But if they did, those ginormous cracks were melodramatic overkill. Anything cracked like that is already broken.

 

[Harvey]

The hole Galactica made in the Colony was airtight? I must have been hallucinating all the EV suits that the colonials were wearing. Of course the Centurions weren't wearing EV suits, but that shouldn't be much of a problem, since they're, you know, mechanized robots. Closer attention would serve you well, stj.

The number of people who designed and built the Blackbird would seem relevant. It would seem to me that more hands working on the project would cut down on design time. It's possible you could end up with too many cooks in the kitchen if you didn't distribute the work correctly, but hey, looks like things worked out in the end. And even the slow computers of Galactica are far, far, far removed from an abacus.

 

[DWF]

^^Because the replicators were offline.


However, her point still doesn't hold water. How could the watch be a meal for somebody if the replicators were off line? He wouldn't be able to recycle it anyway.

Chalk it up to one more reason why Chakotay choose Seven over Janeway in "Endgame".

Since the watch had been replicated I'd say the replicators were online at that point so Janeway's complaint stll stands. Even though Chakotay was right in a different sense.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Some of us are quite happy that Voyager didn't go down the nuBSG path.

Deep Space 9 is about as dark as I want my Trek.

 

[stj]

The hole Galactica made in the Colony was airtight? I must have been hallucinating all the EV suits that the colonials were wearing.

Wearing the suits without the helmets without going through an airlock doesn't count as EV.

 

[Harvey]

Without the helmets? Like in this scene? Or perhaps this one where they're cleary not going out an airlock? The helmets only come off when the landing teams are well within the heart of the Cylon Colony. You have actually seen the episode, right?

 

[Akiraprise]

No BSG pissing matches in here. Take it to the BSG forum.

Now, pissing matches regarding Voyager are perfectly acceptable. The show has provided plenty of material for that purpose.

 

[Deks]

Regarding the Holodeck energy being incompatible with the rest of the ship systems ... they did away with that tidbit from episode 'The Night' I think (season 4 was it?).
Ever since then, Holodeck energy was rerouted routinely to other ship systems.
ip.

Perhaps it works like this:
Energy needed for holodecks needs to be converted and stored into specialized generators, however, that same energy cannot be converted back into usable power for the rest of the ship for one reason or another.
It's possible this limitation existed early on in the show, but the crew managed to find a solution to the problem ever since 7 of 9 came on board (which is when incidentally, the problem was no longer a problem).

 

[ALF]

I think since the holodeck uses a lot of projection via holotechnology and imagery the energy usage would be much lower than the replicator. Processing a turkey dinner with tangible molecular patterns and lighting up a room filled with holographic people with no real mass....

it makes perfect sense to me why the holodeck uses less mass/energy than the replicators.

 

[exodus]

^^Because the replicators were offline.


However, her point still doesn't hold water. How could the watch be a meal for somebody if the replicators were off line? He wouldn't be able to recycle it anyway.

Chalk it up to one more reason why Chakotay choose Seven over Janeway in "Endgame".

Since the watch had been replicated I'd say the replicators were online at that point so Janeway's complaint stll stands. Even though Chakotay was right in a different sense.

Watch the ep. again.

Chakotay said he replicated it months ago.

 

[kimc]

No BSG pissing matches in here. Take it to the BSG forum.

Now, pissing matches regarding Voyager are perfectly acceptable. The show has provided plenty of material for that purpose.

Just don't get any onto the carpets. I get enough of that at home with two puppies.

 

[Harvey]

Perhaps it works like this:
Energy needed for holodecks needs to be converted and stored into specialized generators, however, that same energy cannot be converted back into usable power for the rest of the ship for one reason or another.
It's possible this limitation existed early on in the show, but the crew managed to find a solution to the problem ever since 7 of 9 came on board (which is when incidentally, the problem was no longer a problem).

That is a lovely solution. I just wish it had been shown on screen.

Speaking of shortages, when did they stop keeping track of their photon torpedo complement and have an unlimited supply? It makes sense that they could replicate more--except that in early episodes (I'm specifically thinking of The Cloud, although the Memory Alpha entry doesn't confirm my memory) they make a big deal about how they only have X number of photon torpedoes left.

As for the BSG sniping, sometimes I can't help myself. But I'll try to refrain if everyone else does.

 

[exodus]

Perhaps it works like this:
Energy needed for holodecks needs to be converted and stored into specialized generators, however, that same energy cannot be converted back into usable power for the rest of the ship for one reason or another.
It's possible this limitation existed early on in the show, but the crew managed to find a solution to the problem ever since 7 of 9 came on board (which is when incidentally, the problem was no longer a problem).

That is a lovely solution. I just wish it had been shown on screen.

Speaking of shortages, when did they stop keeping track of their photon torpedo complement and have an unlimited supply? It makes sense that they could replicate more--except that in early episodes (I'm specifically thinking of The Cloud, although the Memory Alpha entry doesn't confirm my memory) they make a big deal about how they only have X number of photon torpedoes left.

I always figured that "Dreadnaut" was the hint that Be'Lanna understood how torpedos worked and could build them herself.

 

[stj]

If Voyager has antimatter powered engines that can warp space itself, and power the replicators, it doesn't make a lick of sense for talk about energy shortages, or replicator rations, or X number of photon torpedoes left. All that was vapid and foolish, because it contradicted the premise of a functional Starfleet vessel. It was a flaw in the series, even if some people want more nonsense instead of less.

The holodecks are a bad idea when they somehow become an alternate reality with unlimited space and food and drink and real live people who somehow disappear with no consequences, instead of an illusion, an interactive video. Power shortages were just a dumb idea for fake drama. A holodeck story just ignores the dumb idea to tell a story. Whether the story was good or not depended entirely upon the individual story, not whether it contradicted the drivel about power shortages.

Voyager in Year of Hell was egregiously silly, which is why the episode is so much weaker on reviewing, for me anyhow. Equinox had the same problem.

 

[Harvey]

At least those two episodes, Year of Hell and Equinox, have antagonists that are fairly interesting and well played by two very good actors. They at least have that going for them, which put them ahead of most other episodes of the series, unfortunately.

When it comes to the technology, you're looking at one of the central problems with the premise of the entire franchise. The story needs engines that can travel many times the speed of light, as well as the equally (if not more so) fantastic transporters. But the story also requires Data to be unique so Starfleet and the Federation are decades behind research in artificial intelligence for no good reason. Which seems silly, because they can create artificial life forms that are holograms (like the Doctor on Star Trek Voyager). Data can construct another android that almost works in The Offspring because it makes for an interesting episode. But the teams of engineers at the Daystrom Institute can't replicate his research, or even come close to it, without taking Data apart (which serves the story in The Measure of Man, as well as others).

Star Trek as a series has done many things that are worthwhile and interesting, but over the course of hundreds of episodes of television, and hundreds of writers, the universe struggles to have consistency when it comes to the technical abilities of the Federation.

As for Voyager and talk of energy shortages, scarcity of torpedoes and the like, if such things were silly and illogical, then they should never have been emphasized in the first place. But the series did emphasize them in the first season, and then sought to forget them afterwards. And the inherent lack of consistency in that is the silliest thing of all.

 

[DWF]

^^Because the replicators were offline.


However, her point still doesn't hold water. How could the watch be a meal for somebody if the replicators were off line? He wouldn't be able to recycle it anyway.

Chalk it up to one more reason why Chakotay choose Seven over Janeway in "Endgame".

Since the watch had been replicated I'd say the replicators were online at that point so Janeway's complaint stll stands. Even though Chakotay was right in a different sense.

Watch the ep. again.

Chakotay said he replicated it months ago.

I know and Janeway only told him to recycle it and there was the hope of restoring the replicators as well, but that wasn't the gist of their conversation.