Spoilers Russell T. Davies Returns to Doctor Who as New Showrunner

[Emperor-Tiberius]

A few days ago I watched a YouTube video that argued Smith's Doctor is actually the dark, anti-heroic one while Capaldi's Doctor was the repudiation of all that. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I see merit in the argument.

Its certainly a powerful argument, and I would argue at the very least that Capaldi evolved into a much kinder, humane, more distinctly Doctor-like than anyone in NuWho before him. But we're talking seasons 9/10 here, and fans were walking out in series 8 probably as early as his earliest episodes.

Not saying, and obviously won't, that his era was underwritten like Colin's or horrible written as Jodie's, but casuals who tuned it for the "hot" Doctors and didn't like the direction just wouldn't return any time soon.

 

[jaime]

A few days ago I watched a YouTube video that argued Smith's Doctor is actually the dark, anti-heroic one while Capaldi's Doctor was the repudiation of all that. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I see merit in the argument.

It was quite a good analysis vid. It popped up in my feed too. I don’t think it’s too far from what Moffat intended tbh.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Apparently there's a rumor going around that Erin Doherty (The Crown) will be The Sixteenth Doctor but she has already squashed that rumor with Radio Times:

I’ve heard the Doctor Who rumour, and I’m into sci-fi and fantasy, but I can honestly say there have been no discussions.​

Its certainly a powerful argument, and I would argue at the very least that Capaldi evolved into a much kinder, humane, more distinctly Doctor-like than anyone in NuWho before him. But we're talking seasons 9/10 here, and fans were walking out in series 8 probably as early as his earliest episodes.

Which, I believe, was always the intention. Capaldi got to do what Colin Baker was suppose to do but didn't get the chance to do (until Big Finish).

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Which, I believe, was always the intention. Capaldi got to do what Colin Baker was suppose to do but didn't get the chance to do (until Big Finish).

Exactly, and the Sixth Doctor was clearly the previous attempt at the arc (and example how not to do it, for Moff) on TV, and BF certainly run it on audio and mostly worked - though, he's been basically Ol' Sixie for the longest time now, but that's beside the point. Capaldi in series 10 actually goes back in time to pick up some photos of Billie's mom to make her feel better, something unthinkable on series 8.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

There’s also a bit of woolly ‘W1A’ BBC thinking at play perhaps. There’s an anecdote about Top Gear concerning how when it was doing astonishingly well with young Black and Asian Men, that it was suggested they ditch one of the three presenters to replace them with a young Black or Asian Man. Wilman, the producer, pointed out that the show was doing gang busters with that demographic even though it was three middle aged, middle class, white blokes, and that it was probably a bit patronising to then mess with something the demographic liked and give them something they hadn’t asked for.

Doctor Who historically has always done very well with the LGBT community (anyone else remember the Sisterhood of Karn fan group? Or any of the fanzine articles by people finding the relative asexuality of the Doctor giving them something of a comfort?) and by the time of Tennant and Smith was *certainly* doing well with women.

But casting Jodie didn’t lead to *more* of that. (I would comment on the same being true of Ncuti, but I think his casting and how his version of the character was treated was such an epic mess on a bunch of levels, especially in retrospect.)

It also pushed *so* hard for some demographics, that it broke what was already working just fine, and managed to alienate other segments of the audience. Not the frothing offence merchants we get on YT, but just general audience and older fans are just turning off or not bothering.

I only bothered finishing War Between last night because well… may as well finish it. (And it was rubbish.)
Apathy will be how this show ends, and unlike in ‘89 we don’t have some youngish fans who will support a new wilderness years based around RTD2 status quo.

Thankfully the last 2 show runners and some cast seem to have taken a note of the success that the Ghostbusters 2016 reboot had when it decided to attack and blame everything on the fans, and that stance seems to have also worked out as well for Who today as it did for said movie. Lol

 

[bdub76]

A few days ago I watched a YouTube video that argued Smith's Doctor is actually the dark, anti-heroic one while Capaldi's Doctor was the repudiation of all that. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I see merit in the argument.

I rewatched Vincent and the Doctor over the holidays, and I enjoyed. I didn't see Smith as a Dark Doctor at all.

McCoy's Doctor went more that route when Ace became his companion.

What is missing is the emotional aspects of Doctor Who that we saw in both the Tennant and Smith eras. What we get instead is PSAs about how plastic is bad and how Amazon is bad.

 

[jaime]

I rewatched Vincent and the Doctor over the holidays, and I enjoyed. I didn't see Smith as a Dark Doctor at all.

McCoy's Doctor went more that route when Ace became his companion.

What is missing is the emotional aspects of Doctor Who that we saw in both the Tennant and Smith eras. What we get instead is PSAs about how plastic is bad and how Amazon is bad.

I thought it was Amazon are good but people are bad?
And plastic is bad, but it’s ok because the blue fish people are actually melting the ice caps, and they eat dogs, and that’s why genocide is ok…

 

[jaime]

Thankfully the last 2 show runners and some cast seem to have taken a note of the success that the Ghostbusters 2016 reboot had when it decided to attack and blame everything on the fans, and that stance seems to have also worked out as well for Who today as it did for said movie. Lol

They def went for the song and dance number.

 

[camdudetenger2018]

when the 15th doctor regenerated to bille piper what if its the bad wolf

 

[Steve Roby]

Thankfully the last 2 show runners and some cast seem to have taken a note of the success that the Ghostbusters 2016 reboot had when it decided to attack and blame everything on the fans

How did it do that? It revived a moribund and overrated franchise by casting some popular comic actors, and the fans acted like they were going to be sent to reeducation camps and every last copy of the original movie would be stolen and set on fire, never to be seen again.

I loved the original Ghostbusters in the 1980s, but it didn't age well. The 2016 reboot won't either, but it was fun enough for 2016.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

They def went for the song and dance number.

While being outside touching grass. Lol

 

[jaime]

How did it do that? It revived a moribund and overrated franchise by casting some popular comic actors, and the fans acted like they were going to be sent to reeducation camps and every last copy of the original movie would be stolen and set on fire, never to be seen again.

I loved the original Ghostbusters in the 1980s, but it didn't age well. The 2016 reboot won't either, but it was fun enough for 2016.

I loved GB growing up, and was *more* than happy to give the 2016 film a chance. (I even managed to get liked or retweeted by Paul Feig for saying as much bizarrely.) But it managed to be… more problematic than a film made in the eighties. A *lot*. And terrible in a bunch of ways.
The biggest problem it has is that the people making it were only aware of ‘Ghostbusters! The Paranormal comedy from the team that brought you Stripes and Meatballs! With your favourite SNL performers!’ Which is always only half the story with GB, especially on a worldwide scale.
That and elements of a marketing campaign that did not know which way to turn, encouraged support that involved denigrating the original to imply watching the new one was almost a moral imperative, and the cameos, and the leaks and…

It was awful. And very much a prototype for the mistakes we would later see follow in stuff like RTD2 tbh.
An existing fan base is something to build on, not intentionally alienate for clicks and giggles whilst still also trying to nostalgia bait.

 

[Mr Awe]

A lot of it depends where you are I would have thought. Tennant hit very big in the UK but it seems like the show grew more in the US during the Smith era.

I think that's correct. My experience was here in the US.

 

[Starkers]

Apparently there's a rumor going around that Erin Doherty (The Crown) will be The Sixteenth Doctor but she has already squashed that rumor with Radio Times:

I’ve heard the Doctor Who rumour, and I’m into sci-fi and fantasy, but I can honestly say there have been no discussions.​

Which, I believe, was always the intention. Capaldi got to do what Colin Baker was suppose to do but didn't get the chance to do (until Big Finish).

Shame, I think she'd be a decent choice.

 

[Steve Roby]

The biggest problem it has is that the people making it were only aware of ‘Ghostbusters! The Paranormal comedy from the team that brought you Stripes and Meatballs! With your favourite SNL performers!’ Which is always only half the story with GB, especially on a worldwide scale.

What's the other half? Serious question. I was 21 or 22 when the original came out, so i didn't pay attention to things like the cartoons. I was barely aware there was such a thing as a Ghostbusters fandom until 2016.

 

[Starkers]

I adore the original film but man it's not really a kids movie (except it is, but also it isn't)

Smoking, drinking, Venkman's borderline harassment of Dana (thankfully redeemed by the fact that when possessed Dana offers herself on a plate he finally acts like a gentleman) the blow job gag!

Most of this probably went over 14 year old me's head at the time. But then there was GB2 and the cartoon which were more child friendly (I mean this was a time when even Robocop got a cartoon series and a range of toys!).

To be honest I was never much of a fan of the sequel and I was a smidgen too old (but weirdly too young) for the cartoon.

The backlash over the all female cast in 2016 was insane. It isn't a great film, but it has a decent cast and whilst a mess it was enjoyable enough. Since then we've had two, again enjoyable, films, both of which have far more in common with Stranger Things than the original Ghostbusters though.

Which does make me wonder, and this links to Who as well, has the franchise changed, or is it that the fans have changed? Because I'm seeing references to Who being too progressive, too intent on message episodes around environmental issues or capitalism, posts that new Doctors are too different to what came before and I wonder if the show is really as different as people think it is?

The Pertwee era leaned into environmental issues a fair bit, and for an apparently small c conservative doctor, the third Doctor was quite the anti-authoritarian. Look at the Sun Makers, a diatribe against capitalism and taxation, or The Happiness Patrol or The Curse of Fenric's political stances. As for modern Doctors being too dissimilar to their predecessors it's a good job the BBC didn't adhere to this back in the day or we'd just have a series of Hartnell clones.

On the progressive side of things it's important to note that popular BBC shows like Call the Midwife/Silent Witness etc lean heavily into storylines that involve progressive issues (and pretty much always have) without seeing a huge tail off in ratings. Though both get fewer viewers than they did but this is in line with terrestrial viewing in general. The point being that on the whole viewers don't turn those shows off because disability or gay rights or environmental issues are addressed.

Of course you might argue the show is just clunkier around it's messaging these days, and you could argue that sometimes the change between Doctors is too radical (take both Colin and Capaldi, though at least Capaldi got time to soften the edges of his abrasive Doctor) I wouldn't completely write either of those arguments off. I certainly liked late era Capaldi way more than early era Capaldi.

 

[The Wormhole]

Agreed, Doctor Who has always been progressive and qualified as being "woke" long before that term in that context became en vogue. And for all the whining about modern Who being "a bunch of PSAs" classic Who had quite a bit to say about the world and politics of the time. The next logical argument, I imagine is someone is going to claim DW was more subtle about its messaging in the past and is now bashing people over the head with its morals, but my response to that would be the Thor "is it, though?" meme. The only time I've felt Doctor Who was a bit too obviously "on the soapbox" as it were was Whittaker's cautionary tale against global warming, which I blame on that being a really poorly written episode in general.

 

[VDCNI]

You get the same with comics as well. They didn't use to be so political is the refrain despite comics tackling political themes for years.

If something fails it's because it's too woke ignoring plenty of other things that continue to sell.

Realistically it's pretty much all done in bad faith.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It's no different from the hysterically absurd claims that Star Trek of all franchises has "suddenly" become woke.