Spoilers Rosa grade and discussion thread

[matthunter]

The South was a powderkeg, but it's possible the nonviolent protests of the type inspired by Parks and MLK might have been less prominent that the more militant movements. It still might not have worked out the way Krasko wanted in the end (I think the point is that the Alt-Right don't actually have a clear gameplan beyond "keep them frightened") but a LOT more people might have suffered and died. And that could have rolling implications - lots of historical figures might not have had the opportunities they got because of the Civil Rights Movement, even if it was delayed say a few decades.

 

[Butters]

He's racist (and probably lots of other -ist). Reckons the end of segregation was the start of 'it all going wrong'.

I got that, the Storm cage and vortex manipulator put this guy as contemporary to River and the Omnisexual Jack. Just struck me as odd that this would still be a thing in the 42nd century, what with Adelaide Brooke’s descendants going out there and mixing with aliens and creating new species.

I don’t expect racist motives to make a lot of sense, but this guy is from 2200 years in the future, a time with interstellar commerce and compact time travel devices. It’s a stretch for me. Maybe if he was from now.

 

[Relayer1]

Slightly off topic but did anyone else get a James Horner Apollo 13 vibe from the music when she first got on the bus at the beginning?

I took it that it was a deliberate Aaron Copland pastiche. It certainly echoed his style.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The South was a powderkeg, but it's possible the nonviolent protests of the type inspired by Parks and MLK might have been less prominent that the more militant movements. It still might not have worked out the way Krasko wanted in the end (I think the point is that the Alt-Right don't actually have a clear gameplan beyond "keep them frightened") but a LOT more people might have suffered and died. And that could have rolling implications - lots of historical figures might not have had the opportunities they got because of the Civil Rights Movement, even if it was delayed say a few decades.

Perhaps so, but it still didn't sit right with me.

Can we not say Alt-Right? That's not really a thing, certainly not within the confines of this story. They're white supremacists.

 

[Kibbin]

I took it that it was a deliberate Aaron Copland pastiche. It certainly echoed his style.

Never heard of the guy but just stuck him on youtube and I think you might be right.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I really liked this episode, though to be fair I'm enjoying this series on the whole.

 

[matthunter]

Can we not say Alt-Right? That's not really a thing, certainly not within the confines of this story. They're white supremacists.

Not much difference, is there? And I'd prefer not using the word supreme or any derivation thereof when describing them. I have other words for them, but family-friendly subforum, y'know.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Mostly good, but too heavy handed in parts -particularly that song. Having a reprise of it instead of the theme tune for the closing credits made it worse.

 

[Relayer1]

Never heard of the guy but just stuck him on youtube and I think you might be right.

He's become a kind of musical shorthand for 'portentious America'.

And rightly so...

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Not much difference, is there? And I'd prefer not using the word supreme or any derivation thereof when describing them. I have other words for them, but family-friendly subforum, y'know.

Except Alt-Right refers to a specific group of people (or "movement," I suppose) in today's world, not 50's South.

And if the family-oriented show is willing to address sticking issues like racism and bigotry, then I think this forum will be fine with using the term white supremacist.

Mostly good, but too heavy handed in parts -particularly that song. Having a reprise of it instead of the theme tune for the closing credits made it worse.

Yeah, the song bugged me, too, but that's partially because I'm so very tired of pop song montages to close out episodes on any show.

 

[Kibbin]

I got that, the Storm cage and vortex manipulator put this guy as contemporary to River and the Omnisexual Jack. Just struck me as odd that this would still be a thing in the 42nd century, what with Adelaide Brooke’s descendants going out there and mixing with aliens and creating new species.

I don’t expect racist motives to make a lot of sense, but this guy is from 2200 years in the future, a time with interstellar commerce and compact time travel devices. It’s a stretch for me. Maybe if he was from now.

Don't forget he was a killer of thousands so we can expect him to be apart from the norm a little maybe?

 

[matthunter]

Except Alt-Right refers to a specific group of people (or "movement," I suppose) in today's world, not 50's South.

Krasko wasn't from the 1950s either. Whatever label he sticks on his "movement" it, Alt-Rightism, the Nazis, the Segregationists are all born of the same thing - fear of people who look or act different (in fact, it's subtle but even the Doctor and Graham get treated with suspicion for being "British" or from "out of town").

Whilst the episode uses the example of Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights Movement, the ugliness Krasko represents is intolerance and bigotry. I don't think calling it "white supremacy" is doing it justice because these same types will turn around and attack Jews just as easily. Racism is more accurate, but even that's underselling it.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That's true, but neither does Alt-Right and, again, that term specifically refers to the current events in the United States.

 

[Kibbin]

Krasko wasn't from the 1950s either. Whatever label he sticks on his "movement" it, Alt-Rightism, the Nazis, the Segregationists are all born of the same thing - fear of people who look or act different (in fact, it's subtle but even the Doctor and Graham get treated with suspicion for being "British" or from "out of town").

I got the impression they were looked at funny due to who they hung around with not due to being British.

 

[matthunter]

That's true, but neither does Alt-Right and, again, that term specifically refers to the current events in the United States.

And here in the UK. And if the episode is pointing a finger at anyone and saying to kids "no, don't be like this", it's not pretending the only racists out there are stuck in 1955 (though mentally they may well be).

 

[Bob The Skutter]

What a stupid argument. Do any of us not understand "Alt-Right"? Why not actually talk about the episode rather then semantics over the terminology used for racists arseholes?

 

[diankra]

I read it simply as Cresco thinking he is inherently superior, and objecting to any society that doesn't accept that. His method doesn't have to make sense if his motives do. If they are shallow and crude that explains why his scheme might not really hold sense.

 

[Butters]

Don't forget he was a killer of thousands so we can expect him to be apart from the norm a little maybe?

True. I’m probably just nitpicking what was an otherwise powerful episode.

The set up was intriguing, another time traveller, but he turned out to be a nut job driven by bigotry that doesn’t make sense in the future world he’s from. And his choice of target doesn’t match his motives either. I would have thought that not ending slavery might have been a more obvious objective.

I’m nitpicking. I know.

 

[matthunter]

I
The set up was intriguing, another time traveller, but he turned out to be a nut job driven by bigotry that doesn’t make sense in the future world he’s from.

It doesn't make much sense TODAY, but see Yas and Ryan's discussion about racial slurs and police profiling. I think that was the point - these folk are always going to be around in one form or another. Perhaps even wrapped in bonded polycarbide and waving a sucker arm about whilst proclaiming themselves superior. It's up to the rest of us to stand our ground (or stay seated when asked to move).

 

[RevdKathy]

Do British children learn this stuff in school? I didn't, but it wasn't 'history' then. I remember MLK's death. Rosa Parks I learned about much later.

I hear the point that this was one tiny moment, and there were probably others they could have used. And that people from some advanced future should surely have outgrown the bigotry rubbish. But for whatever reason, this particular bigot decided that was the moment it all went wrong, so it made sense to him. Just as trying to "get back to the British Empire" makes sense to certain sorts of bigots, oblivious of the fact that we can't just re-annex other countries. Bigotry doesn't make sense.

I thought the episode handled very sensitive material with real delicacy. They weren't there to inspire or make things happen. They were guardians of a moment, gently witnessing, working to ensure it unfolded as it should, evidencing the pain they felt at not being able to intervene. The looks on faces as Rosa was arrested and they couldn't stop it happening reminded me of a humanity I don't think the show has had in many seasons.

I'd do wonder how this will have played out with fans who might share some of that irrational bigotry, so kudos to the show for tackling it. I've already seen one next tweet calling it PC preaching.

One of the best in a long time, IMHO.