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Ron Tracey and the Prime Directive

George C. Scott didn't like his performance in "Patton" and didn't think it worthy of an Oscar, which is why he declined it, while Brando saw an opportunity to make a political statement about the state of American Indians* (I think it might've had more impact if he'd been there to make his statement himself, but that's just me...).

*No, I do not use the term "Native American". For one thing, most Indians prefer the term "Indian"; it sounds cooler. Second, I'm tired of being told how to describe folks by a bunch of self-loathing guilty white liberals and refuse to play by their rules. :p
 
TOS and TNG Prime Directive really seem completely different. TNG seemed to allow no contact or interaction with less developed cultures. (Whatever that's supposed to mean without becoming crassly condescending towards the planets they visit.) TOS Prime Directive didn't prohibit contact and trade, as was seen in Friday's Child, or helping out (on the quiet) as in 'Paradise Syndrome' that is if the title's wrong (Mirimanee and the American-Indian Culture). What was not allowed was wholesale throw in the Federation tools and weapons and all. I think Tracy would have been in trouble by taking side in a native planetary war which was their own problem to sort out. By taking sides with weapons and such he massively overstepped the bounds of the TOS prime Directive.
 
What was not allowed was wholesale throw in the Federation tools and weapons and all.

Actually, that was allowed, too, provided the whole UFP (supposedly the kit'n'kaboodle of a representative government) was behind it. Gunboat diplomacy was going to be used to force the hand of the Eminians/Vendikans and the Melkots...

One wonders if Starfleet would have taken sides in the Eminian/Vendikan conflict, had things not proceeded the way they did. Kirk, too, took sides by placing Eminiar at a disadvantage - but only because he couldn't do the same to Vendikar (or didn't need to, in order to promote his unashamedly selfish agenda of self-protection).

Timo Saloniemi
 
What was not allowed was wholesale throw in the Federation tools and weapons and all.
Actually, that was allowed, too, provided the whole UFP (supposedly the kit'n'kaboodle of a representative government) was behind it. Gunboat diplomacy was going to be used to force the hand of the and the Melkots...

One wonders if Starfleet would have taken sides in the Eminian/Vendikan conflict, had things not proceeded the way they did. Kirk, too, took sides by placing Eminiar at a disadvantage - but only because he couldn't do the same to Vendikar (or didn't need to, in order to promote his unashamedly selfish agenda of self-protection).

Timo Saloniemi

In those two situations the ships aren't allowed to go in and intervene, but told to go in and get involved. A small, but important difference. Tracy was, presumably, allowed to go in as an explorer just as Kirk and crew do on many worlds. Tracy overstepped his situation by his actions of fighting for the Kohms, especially with phasers and such. He had no mandate to intervene by Federation modes and methods, which Kirk had in the two situations you alluded to. In the case of the Kohms/Yangs, Kirk suggested change within the terms and methods of the cultures on the planet, and presumably left them to fix their mess themselves.

I find that a difference between Kirk's PD and Picard's. The implication I get from Picard's era is that all of these are Prime Directive violations, including Kirk's. I don't get the impression Picard's Federation would get involved in the Eminians/Vendikans conflict, rather they'd order the ships to go around their space. Similarly, they'd have listened to the Melkots desire to be left alone rather than be contacted.

The Fleet involvement you wonder about, as I see things, I believe they would have. Depending on your view of General order 24, which I think was serious and one that would be open to a ships captain under this kind of situation, the fleet would have fought to defend Federation interests. That is to force the sides to stop shooting down Federation ships in their war.

The General order 24 issue is something akin to Klatuu and Gort in Day the Earth Stood Still. So long as the Eminians/Vendikans fought among themselves, the Federation would not get involved, but once they started shooting at Federation ships they were open to being attacked even destroyed by Federation forces.
 
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Did Ron Tracey (Captain of the U.S.S. Exeter) actually break the Prime Directive in the The Omega Glory? Couldn't he have made the case that the planetary culture was stagnant (as we've seen Kirk do)? And by doing that made a case that it was his duty to help the Kohms fend off the Yangs.

If he hadn't crispy-fried Ensign Redshirt, I think a good lawyer would have gotten the Prime Directive violation dropped and he would've been back in command in no time.

Far too convenient, and it was not stagnant (OMG!)..if anything someone would eventually triumph, history moves on. Its a cold war turned hot...its a natural progression. Wow, I'm so glad you are not in Starfleet. :lol:

Also Kirk's personal rationales belong to him, not the PD.

RAMA
 
Did Ron Tracey (Captain of the U.S.S. Exeter) actually break the Prime Directive in the The Omega Glory? Couldn't he have made the case that the planetary culture was stagnant (as we've seen Kirk do)? And by doing that made a case that it was his duty to help the Kohms fend off the Yangs.

If he hadn't crispy-fried Ensign Redshirt, I think a good lawyer would have gotten the Prime Directive violation dropped and he would've been back in command in no time.

Far too convenient, and it was not stagnant (OMG!)..if anything someone would eventually triumph, history moves on. Its a cold war turned hot...its a natural progression. Wow, I'm so glad you are not in Starfleet. :lol:

Also Kirk's personal rationales belong to him, not the PD.

RAMA

It's funny that the only way you seem to be able to make a point is to insult other posters.

The thread was about whether a good lawyer could get Tracey off the hook not about the rights and wrongs of the Prime Directive.

Reading comprehension is your friend.
 
Far too convenient, and it was not stagnant (OMG!)..if anything someone would eventually triumph, history moves on. Its a cold war turned hot...its a natural progression. Wow, I'm so glad you are not in Starfleet. :lol:

You do realize that these people had been stuck in this state for thousands of years. They were so far removed from those that had fought that they didn't even know how to read their own sacred texts. They were stuck in an endless war because they looked different from one another. And living well past a thousand as a consequence of the war didn't happen over night...

The Omega Glory said:
MCCOY: Yes. I'm convinced that once there was a frightening biological war that existed here. The virus still exists. Then over the years, nature built up these natural immunizing agents in the food, the water, and the soil.
SPOCK: War created an imbalance and nature counterbalanced it.

The Yangs retook the village in the episode, but how many times had these tribes exchanged control over the same crumbling buildings? We see no evidence in the episode that they were actually building anything.

The point being, I think a good lawyer could've gotten the Prime Directive violation dropped or at the very least lessened based on the conditions of the native populace.
 
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What was not allowed was wholesale throw in the Federation tools and weapons and all.
Actually, that was allowed, too, provided the whole UFP (supposedly the kit'n'kaboodle of a representative government) was behind it. Gunboat diplomacy was going to be used to force the hand of the Eminians/Vendikans and the Melkots...

One wonders if Starfleet would have taken sides in the Eminian/Vendikan conflict, had things not proceeded the way they did. Kirk, too, took sides by placing Eminiar at a disadvantage - but only because he couldn't do the same to Vendikar (or didn't need to, in order to promote his unashamedly selfish agenda of self-protection).

Timo Saloniemi

The Federation had already picked sides. The side of "BOTH OF YOU IDIOTS KNOCK IT OFF OR WE'LL END IT FOR YOU!"

As for Capt. Tracey, not even Samuel T. Cogley, Attorney At Law, could get him out of this one. The second he introduced phasers to the mix, his career was toast. At best, he could plead for leniency based upon his previously sterling service record and the extenuating circumstances of losing his entire crew, but the best that'd do is get him life in prison without the hard labor.
 
Introducing new weapons to the mix gets you medals, not hard labor, as proven time and again by Kirk. Basically the only time he didn't shoot himself out of a native ambush was "Bread and Circuses", and even there it probably wasn't due to the (newly introduced drama of) Prime Directive, but the fact that the ambush featured superior numbers of baddies with deadly submachine guns and didn't allow for any sort of resistance.

Timo Saloniemi
 
“Arena” - Kirk is certainly not breaking the Prime Directive by going after the Gorns with intent to destroy because the Gorns had already destroyed Cestus III. The only reason he was stopped was because they crossed into the Metron star system.

“The Return Of The Archons” - If Kirk could have left the planet with an explanation for what happened to Sulu and O'Neal and the Enterprise had not been attacked then he probably would have left Beta III as is for Federation sociologists to return to and study. The inhabitants already knew about "Archons" and themselves were already trying to resist Landru in their own limited fashion.

“A Taste Of Armageddon” - Kirk approaches Eminiar 7 under protest and he would have gladly left the two warring planets to themselves and their war until Eminiar tries to destroy Kirk, his crew and his ship and thereby drag the Federation into their interplanetary conflict. I don't think the Prime Directive is going to hold a lot of water when it comes to open aggression from an advanced space faring culture.

“Friday’s Child” - No Prime Directive violation since the natives were already aware of and trading with "Earth men." And Kirk didn't try to interfere in how they managed their affairs, but just tried to survive until the Enterprise returned. He might have overstepped in not leaving Eleen behind to face her fate.

“The Apple” - Kirk is ready to bug out and leave the planet except that Vaal has no intention of letting them leave...alive. Kirk also had orders to contact the inhabitants if dictated. Unfortunately no information is given in this episode to explain how the natives had gotten into their situation with Vaal, but it's evident enough that an advanced someone had put them there. And it's been said enough that the Prime Directive applies to a growing and developing culture...which the natives certainly were not.

“Bread And Circuses” - All Kirk and company do here is survive and escape. And Merrick didn't so much influence the inhabitants but rather just surrendered to them. And it seems the Proconsul and what few others may have know something about where these strangers came from were keeping a lid on it themselves.

“A Private Little War” - It's supposed to be a "hands off" planet by Federation/Klingon treaty and yet the Klingons are certainly violating it. Kirk certainly doesn't like having to get involved, but the end result is clear if nothing is done: the hill people are going to be wiped out by the villagers with the Klingons behind it all. Kirk could just report it, but before that he decides to level the playing field for the hill people. What he doesn't do is introduce superior technology. I'd say this is Kirk's closest instance of putting his foot in it, but evidently the Federation lets him off and retain his command and career. But sadly we never hear what happens afterward to the people of Neral.

“The Gamesters Of Triskelion” - The Providers, an advanced species, forcibly kidnap Kirk's landing party and intend to destroy the Enterprise. They're certainly, and admittedly, not interested in fostering a developed society until Kirk challenges them. And they still could have gone back on their word and destroyed Kirk and the Enterprise. I certainly don't think the PD applies here.

“A Piece Of The Action” - Never mind this is something of a silly episode. The Horizon had already contaminated the planet most likely long before the Prime Directive existed. I suspect if Kirk had been able to ascertain the situation and leave peaceably to report what he'd found he would of. But once again the landing party is taken hostage and threatened. In this case, though, it seems to say that the Federation is taking responsibility for what happened to the Iotians and Kirk's action is the first step in trying to minimize or partially reverse the Horizon's contamination...whether you agree or not with his idea.

“Patterns Of Force” - They're trying to find out what happened to John Gill and later do learn what happened to him and that Gill had violated the Prime Directive. Kirk's intent throughout seems mainly to be to find Gill and bug out, but when he learns what's happened he manages to help Gill call off the attack on Zaon just before Gill is killed. They leave immediately after. And note that the Ekosians already seem to have some awareness of other worlds beyond theirs and Zaon.

“The Omega Glory” - Tracey has already violated the Prime Directive by introducing advanced weaponry into killing thousands of Kohms. Kirk is just trying to survive yet without doing the same thing. The question is whether Krik violated the Prime Directive by simply explaining the meaning of the Yangs' own sacred text.

“Spock’s Brain” - It may seem silly, but is there really a Prime Directive violation for retrieving Spock's brain back from the Morg women after they had stolen it?

“For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky” - Kirk is trying to put Yonada back on course and reveals a "truth" that the Yonadans had sadly forgotten, but would have been revealed again once they reached their destination.

"The Cloud Minders" For me the real question is how can the Federation allow membership to a world which clearly exploits some of its own people. Anyway the episode raises the question as to whether Kirk oversteps into Ardanan jurisdiction by offering the Troglodites filter masks. Evidently the Ardanans aren't "doing all they can" to secure the zenite and fulfill their responsibilities to another Federation member world.

“One Of Our Planets Is Missing” - The message here seems to be take a really good look before you eat another planet."

“The Infinite Vulcan” - The Phylosians were about to launch an interstellar war out of exaggerated gratitude to Stavos Keniclius for saving them from a disease or something. And the Phylosians evidently knew about alien life and other worlds.

“BEM” - Kirk just wanted to bug out, but Ambassador Bem kept screwing things up. If anything Bem is to one who should be on the hot seat.


The issue seems to come down to:
- what constitutes interference and when does it apply?
- what is reasonable and accepted action in the event of evident prior interference or contamination?
- when and where does non-interference apply?

The Prime Directive is evidently not an absolute blanket policy with no exceptions. If this is drafted up by politicians and legal minds, no matter how well meaning, then it's most likely going to have a lot of room for interpretation. The whole idea seems to be extrapolated from past encounters in our own history where less advanced cultures were grossly exploited by more advanced ones, in terms of technologically advanced and not necessarily ethically advanced. But on a planet where there's no where else to go it's inevitable that cultures will clash on some level. Putting this on an interstellar scale obviously you've got a lot more room to play with, but there are likely still going to be instances of cultural conflict. In the end much is going to depend upon the value ascribed to a given species and culture.

The Klingons certainly have no qualms about contaminating another world because they see themselves as having a manifest destiny to conquer and rule because they are strong and aggressive by nature. To them it's self-evident. In some respects the Klingons are much like past cultures on Earth such as the Romans and others. Same for the Romulans. And it's probably partly why the Federation is bothered by them because the Klingons remind them of what they used to be like and in many ways could still be just under the surface. Kor was actually quite right in his own way.

The Prime Directive (as it seems to exist in the TOS era) appears to be the first steps in trying to curb exploitation of other species and cultures, an effort not to repeat the mistakes of the past. I don't think it's meant to eliminate all interaction, but primarily to minimize detrimental interaction.

If a species is isolated and has absolutely no knowledge of other worlds and other life, and even if they are actively looking out into space and listening (as we are), and even making their first forays off planet (as we are) then the idea seems to be to still not reveal yourself to them. The idea of subspace radio also seems to suggest that it isn't something that could be easily tapped into without a sufficiently advanced technology. Subspace radio is not only convenient (and necessary) for interstellar activity, but it has a side benefit of keeping you hidden from less advanced cultures. I'd say even if they manage early warp flight I'd think it best if they find you on their own rather than you going to their home world to announce yourself. A race could still feel quite threatened by someone with really advanced technology suddenly showing up on their doorstep. TNG's episode "First Contact" seems to show that well enough. I also think the Vulcans showing up as they do in the TNG film First Contact wasn't that bright an idea. I guess they didn't yet have a version of the Prime Directive---not very enlightened I'd say.

Now if you do happen to encounter primitive or less advance inhabitants then you seem to have to make a genuine effort not to reveal who you really are and where you come from. The exceptions to this seem to apply to those worlds that where contact already existed before the Prime Directive policy was introduced. If prior contamination is evident then you appear to have some latitude to reverse or minimize the contamination.

If you encounter a sufficiently advanced culture who don't conform to Federation standards and principles you're still not supposed to interfere in their affairs. But that doesn't mean you have to sacrifice yourself to them. You are authorized to take reasonable measures for self-defense and self-preservation.

Under normal circumstances you're not to interfere in the internal affairs of a Federation member world. But what if that member world's internal affairs are adversely influencing or affecting another member? Where do their rights end and another's begin? And this issue gets into the area of what are the standards for Federation membership, but that's another discussion.

All life has value, but the questions arise when it comes to how much value a species or culture is given. Certainly the Federation worlds have value and a right to exist just as much as less advanced worlds. How much is the Federation supposed or expected to sacrifice in the name of protecting another culture?

And finally what exactly are the conditions where a Starfleet or starship commander must be willing to sacrifice himself, his ship and his crew to uphold the Prime Directive? This is never really spelled out in Star Trek as far as I know.
 
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Why bother? People are convinced that the only thing Jim Kirk did more than break the Prime Directive was screw alien women.

Facts obviously have no place in discussions regarding Jim Kirk.
 
I see a lot of discussion here along the lines of "Kirk didn't want to interfere until the Enterprise was attacked" or "Kirk wouldn't have interfered except that he had to in order to escape alive." But is that really a justification? From "Bread and Circuses":
KIRK: If I brought down a hundred of them armed with phasers...
CLAUDIUS: You could probably defeat the combined armies of our entire empire. And violate your oath regarding noninterference with other societies. I believe you all swear you'll die before you'd violate that directive. Am I right?
SPOCK: Quite correct.
There are numerous mentions throughout Trek's history of Starfleet officers taking an oath that they will die before they violate the Prime Directive. Now, obviously, that doesn't happen in practice. At least not that we've seen. But it's still there.

So arguing "well, Kirk had to in order to escape," doesn't change the fact that he violated the Prime Directive.
 
I see a lot of discussion here along the lines of "Kirk didn't want to interfere until the Enterprise was attacked" or "Kirk wouldn't have interfered except that he had to in order to escape alive." But is that really a justification? From "Bread and Circuses":
KIRK: If I brought down a hundred of them armed with phasers...
CLAUDIUS: You could probably defeat the combined armies of our entire empire. And violate your oath regarding noninterference with other societies. I believe you all swear you'll die before you'd violate that directive. Am I right?
SPOCK: Quite correct.
There are numerous mentions throughout Trek's history of Starfleet officers taking an oath that they will die before they violate the Prime Directive. Now, obviously, that doesn't happen in practice. At least not that we've seen. But it's still there.

So arguing "well, Kirk had to in order to escape," doesn't change the fact that he violated the Prime Directive.

But what happens when some other schlub goes wondering into the Beta III or Gamma Trianguli VI system?

All I've ever advocated is that the Prime Directive be balanced with common sense.

Did Ron Tracey break the Prime Directive? Yes. But what harm did he actually do to the cultural evolution of Omega IV? The incident seemed to be entirely local and without mass communication no one else on the planet ever likely found out about the "fire boxes". And if they did hear about them... they likely just believed it to be a fabrication.

Was the point of the computers controlling Beta III and Gamma Trianguli VI to lobotomize said cultures? Those who weren't under Landru's control on Beta III didn't seem to think so and were struggling to free their culture from its control. Beta III, on the surface, was seemingly less advanced than the Federation... but when you began to peel away the layers you found its people with access to stunning technology.

And I'm confused how Kirk trying to escape from planet 892-IV somehow constitutes a Prime Directive violation. You likely contaminate a culture far more by bringing four hundred and thirty people down than if a few people watch you sparkle and disappear.
 
^^ And I think this is an essential point. Exactly what constitutes interference?

Lets take a step away from TOS for a moment. Around the same time in the mid '60s there was a show called The Time Tunnel where two scientists get bounced around in time. In one episode (perhaps the pilot?) they end up on the Titanic not long before the ship hits the iceberg and sinks. Now in TTT there's no Prime Directive and the scientists set about trying to warn the ship's Captain of the impending collision. Their justification is to save all those passengers and crew from a horrible death.

Now in the episode the scientists fail and the time tunnel whisks them away at the last moment. BUT what if they had succeeded? What if those 2200 plus people hadn't died in 1912 aboard the Titanic? No one can say how history from then on might have been changed, but it could have been changed dramatically. Someone or someones might have gone on to have significant impact on history. And so in relevance to TOS the interference has to be shown to have drastic influence on said culture.

In the case of "Bread And Circuses" Kirk didn't beak the Prime Directive. R.M. Merrick did as evidenced by the Proconsul already knowing who Kirk and company were and where they came from. As such Kirk certainly didn't break the PD by escaping either.

The problem is that some are accepting the Prime Directive policy as absolute and nothing is absolute. The evidence we see onscreen in each case shows that it's not absolute. As such there must be exceptions and mitigating circumstances.

As I said earlier the one thing that I've never seen laid out are the exact conditions where Starfleet commanders must sacrifice themselves, their ship and their crew to uphold the policy.

Another problem is that the Prime Directive is a great idea for a story, but it's one where all the ramifications mighn't have been thought through. Because in reality the only way to fully enforce the Prime Directive is to avoid all contact whatsoever with other cultures. And so the moment you suspect there is intelligent life somewhere you immediately turn away and go somewhere else.

But that isn't how real life works.

One could make the argument (and many have) that human beings are interfering in the natural development of other animal life on Earth. But that's overlooking the very fact that we ourselves sprang from this Earth. We are in direct competition for survival as every species has ever been on this planet. In many cases we can coexist and in some cases we cannot. Let's face it: what's the likelihood of us being able to coexist with oversized reptiles such as the dinosaurs? Not likely. If the dinosaurs hadn't disappeared it's likely mammals wouldn't have been able to evolve large enough to fill the ecological niches vacated by the dinosaurs.

All life is faced with the prospects of unexpected variables impacting upon them, and that certainly includes intelligent life. The question becomes: how potentially detrimental or influential is said impact?
 
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Far too convenient, and it was not stagnant (OMG!)..if anything someone would eventually triumph, history moves on. Its a cold war turned hot...its a natural progression. Wow, I'm so glad you are not in Starfleet. :lol:

You do realize that these people had been stuck in this state for thousands of years. They were so far removed from those that had fought that they didn't even know how to read their own sacred texts. They were stuck in an endless war because they looked different from one another. And living well past a thousand as a consequence of the war didn't happen over night...

The Omega Glory said:
MCCOY: Yes. I'm convinced that once there was a frightening biological war that existed here. The virus still exists. Then over the years, nature built up these natural immunizing agents in the food, the water, and the soil.
SPOCK: War created an imbalance and nature counterbalanced it.

The Yangs retook the village in the episode, but how many times had these tribes exchanged control over the same crumbling buildings? We see no evidence in the episode that they were actually building anything.

The point being, I think a good lawyer could've gotten the Prime Directive violation dropped or at the very least lessened based on the conditions of the native populace.

You just don't make any sense...Tracey used a phaser...a product of hundreds of yrs more technological advancement and killed thousands of a less advanced race!! He didn't just break the PD, He's a war criminal! What biz does he have getting involved in it other than to use the planet for its healing powers? Its despicable. Its like going to Saudi Arabia, knocking them out with tactical nukes and taking over their oil fields. You make my brain hurt.

RAMA
 
As I said earlier the one thing that I've never seen laid out are the exact conditions where Starfleet commanders must sacrifice themselves, their ship and their crew to uphold the policy.

Which I wonder if that part isn't hyperbole, created by those on the actual frontier, based on the insane amount of importance based on it.
 
You just don't make any sense...Tracey used a phaser...a product of hundreds of yrs more technological advancement and killed thousands of a less advanced race!! He didn't just break the PD, He's a war criminal! What biz does he have getting involved in it other than to use the planet for its healing powers? Its despicable. Its like going to Saudi Arabia, knocking them out with tactical nukes and taking over their oil fields. You make my brain hurt.

RAMA

One phaser does not equate with tactical nukes. Nice piece of bluster though.

And what is the some total of damage from using that phaser in the grand scheme of things on Omega IV? Did he change the course of the planet's evolution? No. For the Prime Directive to be in effect the damage has to be of the nature that it takes the planet off of its natural course. Nothing Tracey did accomplished that. At most he changed the balance of power in a small region for a short amount of time.

By attacking the Yangs he simply shifted who was getting slaughtered.

Once again... are you some how unable to make a point without hurling insults? It's like debating with a third-grader
 
As I said earlier the one thing that I've never seen laid out are the exact conditions where Starfleet commanders must sacrifice themselves, their ship and their crew to uphold the policy.

Which I wonder if that part isn't hyperbole, created by those on the actual frontier, based on the insane amount of importance based on it.
If you follow this logic then Ron Tracey should have let himself be run through with a spear or killed by an arrow or sword rather use his phaser.

Now if he'd used his phaser in self defense and no other natives witnessed it well then he might have a sliver of a chance in court. But he used his phaser to kill thousands of Kohms. He's toast.

One could argue that what Tracey should have done is to have gone native and shed pretty much all his high tech gear and/or make himself a hermit and avoided further contact with anyone. But he chose to involve himself in the inhabitants' affairs and to influence the outcome.
 
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